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Owen Grover on Business Unveiled

How Music Has Evolved into the Digital Age

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How Music Has Evolved into the Digital Age

EMILY KING ON BUSINESS UNVEILED 

How to Define Your Money Story

Before the digital age, music was a lot different. If you wanted to listen to music, you had to buy CDs or vinyl records, and if you wanted to hear a specific song, you had to sit through an entire album just to get to it. 

Nowadays, of course, we have iTunes and Spotify and other digital music platforms that let us listen to whatever we want, whenever we want. It's hard to imagine going back to the old way of doing things! But what if there were a way for musicians and music industry professionals to share craft, digitally?

I’m so excited to share today’s guest, Owen Grover, CEO of TrueFire Studios, who will be sharing with us all about the digitalisation of learning within the music industry and its benefits compared to traditional methods.

MAIN TOPICS
  • The digitalisation of learning within the music industry and its benefits compared to traditional methods.
  • The intersection of music and tech, and its evolution during the pandemic.
  • What Owen has learned about e-learning after serving over 3M customers.
KEY TAKEAWAYS

Help artists make money

Create instructional content

The intersection of music and tech

MORE ABOUT OUR GUEST

Owen Grover is the CEO of TrueFire Studios, one of the biggest music education brands out there, with 4 main brands:

  • Artistworks.com: an online music platform focused on making learning affordable and easy. The platform has over 50k lessons, 35+ teachers, and has taught tens of thousands of students in 80+ countries.
  • TrueFire: a digital guitar lessons platform that has collaborated with 300+ top artists and educators, and has over 40k video lessons available.
  • FaderPro: an online music education platform focused on electronic dance music that has teamed up with big names like Nicky Romero.
  • JamPlay: a leading resource for learning to play the guitar and bass online that has over 500k customers and 300k followers across social media.

Owen also helped produce the concert for Sandy Relief at Madison Square Garden, which raised over $55 million for victims of Hurricane Sandy. Owen is also known for building Pocket Casts, an Australian-born podcasting app.

Owen has been actively involved in the media and entertainment industry for nearly 20 years. He lives in Brooklyn with his wife Dr. Erin Gilbert and their son Devon. A passionate music fan, his favorite band is The Clash. 

Owen's team is offering our listeners 50% off any purchase on TrueFire.com. Code: UNVEILED50

EPISODE TRANSCRIBED

Hi, y'all. It's Angela. I'm back for another episode of business unveiled. I'm so excited for our guests today. And I know that my team is too, because they were looking at his background, and he has this amazing music background, and then this amazing entrepreneurial background. And so I'm excited to dive in and chat with him today. So Oh, and welcome to the show today.

Continue Reading

It's great to be here, Angela. Thanks for having me. Of course,
I'm so excited to hear just more about your journey. And for so many people. I mean, I'm from Nashville, Music City, USA. And music pulls so many things, so many things together in so many different ways in so many different levels. I mean, even this morning, I'm walking into the gym, and I'm not a morning person. But if a bad song is playing, and it's not motivating, I want to go get back in bed, and my trainer knows it. And so it's like, when I walk into the gym, they know when the music switches because I'm just like, I don't care what people think if someone's not gonna like take the reigns here, we need to hear some bumping music because it's really early. And I need motivation. So it's just I don't know, music is a huge part of my life and my team's life and probably a lot of people listening to watching. Like, it's the center of emotion. There's so many things. So before we jump into this, because I'm fascinated by your platform, and there's so many things that are available to us online, like you were saying earlier without even leaving your home. But give us the backstory because y'all we were chatting before I started recording, you have an incredible journey, you have a ton of experience, like, share a little bit of that with anybody listening or watching.
Well, I mean, I think it's fair to say right from the start, like music saved my life, music is so important to me. And when I was 1213 years old, I just didn't feel like I fit in. So I found my place in music. And I just didn't feel like the people around me reflected the kind of person I want it to be I grew up in a super preppy part of New Jersey, I went to a preppy school and those kids just, it just didn't work for me. And I don't know if they cared about music or not, I just know that I was in a carpool with a whole bunch of other kids driving school in the suburbs in New Jersey. And they'd listen to this, this music and I just thought like, boy, like, this is terrible background music, and it means nothing to me. And it was through music that I really began to explore my own identity and figure out who I was. And I carry that with me every day. And I didn't have an uncle or an aunt or or, or relative or friend in the music industry. And it was like very mysterious to me. How do you get involved? What do you do? What are the jobs? Like, what does it mean? It just was completely foreign to me, but I knew I wanted to be a part of it. So I did what I could I played in bands as a as a young adolescent 1314 years old 15 In high school, I formed a band in college, I formed a band, my only extracurricular activity in college was concerts committee, helping to produce shows on campus. And I got a taste of what it was like, not only to produce live shows, but you know, work with agents, and actually learn all the equipment that has to be a part of that, and what does it take and ticketing and, you know, budgeting and all of these pieces. And it taught me not just about music, but it taught me about business. And it taught me about people. I remember developing a relationship with the agent that we called and, you know, we were my college was in was in Manhattan in New York City. And so they would never give us that much money because every band would play in Manhattan. So why do they need to come to our campus to play? And you know, we would say Oh, but you know, we've got an A, you know, it was it was a great school, and therefore we should figure this out, but we never had as much money as we wanted. So we had to make it work. We had to use that budget the right way. And you have to think about what kind of artists would work and should it be punk or should it be rock or should it be hip hop? We did all of it. We did all of it. And we had the I mean, I just think about some of the bands I got to work with so early, you know, everything from Jeff Buckley to Run DMC to Sonic Youth to the Ramones to Tribe Called Quest to leaders of the new school. And I look back now and I think to myself, How is it possible that as an 18, or 19 year old kid, I had this opportunity, and it was just always there. And, you know, I like to describe my career as being somewhat Alia Tory, and that just means governed by fate governed by fate. I never had a five year plan. I never had a, you know, a burning desire to conquer the industry. What I wanted to do was build a career for myself that I could love. And I've tried to do that successfully, sometimes not so successfully other times, but always taking steps in new directions, sometimes falling on my face. And that's where you learn, of course, but it's been such a great, marvelous experiment my whole life, really. And I just feel super, super grateful.
That's awesome. But I don't know if you feel this way. And people say to you, like, Oh, my God, you're so lucky. You know? And it's like, yeah, be grateful. And then, again, people are always, Oh, you're so lucky. And it's like, well, no, actually, it was very strategic. And it was the decisions and the planning ahead. And it's not that it's luck. It's like you put the work in, right? You, you know, right. Manifest is like a big word right now. And it's like, well, you can manifest shit all day long. But if you don't put it, put it together on a strategy and put it on your calendar, or set goals to make these things happen, you can think stuff all tape in your head, that's not going to happen if you don't do the work. So
you have to execute. I can't I can, when opportunity knocks, you better be ready to answer. You know, you better be ready to answer with bells on you better be ready to go the extra mile, you better get ready to fall on your face and get back get yourself back up again. I can't tell you how many times you know, I thought to myself, I've got it, I made it, I did the right thing. And then three months later, what have I done. Like, I remember the first job I got in radio, I went to go work for this big radio company, I'm sure a lot of your listeners will be familiar with it. And I got into the job. And I was turned out I was working for a really tough guy. And I'm three months in and he's just relentlessly hounding me. And, you know, quite frankly, bullying me, and just, you know, giving me the business all hours of the day, all hours of the night. And I'm three months in, and I'm like, Well, I thought I was getting my dream job. And it's kind of a nightmare. And I had to sort of take a step back and think to myself, you know, this is going to teach me something important about myself. I'm just not sure what it is yet. And I'm glad I didn't give up. So part of it is hard work. But part of it also is, you know, a relentlessness. You know, and then also, just to always I remind myself that I've had so many advantages, you know, I have a great parents who are always super supportive of me, and you know, a great group of friends around me. And, you know, I didn't have to worry about there being a roof over my head, or you know, where my next meal was gonna come from? Or would I make rent. And that makes a big difference. Because when you can just focus on building your career, and you don't have to worry about that. I just think a so many people just have the stresses that make it impossible for them to see beyond that next step. And so, you know, I do feel a sense of profound gratitude. And I'd like to think I've made the most of the opportunities that were presented to me.
That's awesome. I mean, you can't go to any restaurant in Nashville, and one or two or three of the servers there. They moved to Nashville to sing. You know, but they're serving at at nice restaurants, because which I read this yesterday, when I was like, getting ready for everything today. Something about like, you know, the starving artist is like, how do you crack that? And even people that I mean, we work in and do a lot of events in music, but we're just doing the event, like you get little things here and there. But It shocks me how things have changed just so drastically so quickly. And I have a few really good friends who are songwriters. Like they don't sing, they don't perform. And some of the things they say to me about what the public thinks that goes on, and then what's really happening. And I'm like, wow, that's interesting. I don't sit around and think about that, because, I mean, it's not my industry. But then a friend of mine was on. I think Mark Aslan the Prophet, the guy who does for profit, he did a series like a new show in Nashville about the music industry to try to help educate the public on. He's like, how did you guys make money around here? I'm confused. There's a lot of different ways. And I'm sure you've seen like a cultural shift, just maybe with like age that the older musicians make money this way. But then the younger ones make money. It's just so different. So
it's so great to bring that up. It's so relevant for you to bring that up, given my current role. And you know, now that I've gotten to the age I'm at now and your listeners, I know, you can't see me, I'm 48 years old. So I've gotten to see the letter really young. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. I'll take that all day long. But it's true that I'm 48. So I've seen you know, I got into the industry at the end of the CD era, and right was sort of Napster was starting to change. So the first big change, right, the first big change I saw, we all did, the first big change was the change from physical to digital, right, which took a long time and the industry, particularly the record business, the selling music business, you know, the CDs, the old Tower Records, the, you know, the, all of the, you know, HMV is the Virgin megastores, that business was a big business, it's gone. Now, it's completely disappeared, it doesn't exist, right. So I saw that whole change happen. And then, of course, it went from digital piracy to the iTunes Store, and then downloading singles for 99 cents or downloading albums for 999. That was another change. And then there was the change from downloads to streaming, right. And then, you know, you went from the iTunes Store to first Pandora, which was one kind of streaming. And then we launched iHeart, radio, that was another kind of streaming. And then there was then the Spotify came in. And you know, the rest is history. And artists that had made a lot of money on recorded music, the sales of CDs, tapes back in the day, vinyl, that kind of dried up for a lot of people, right, and so that middle class of artists, you know, went into a completely into a tailspin. And then it was mostly about live music and merch. And, you know, the business I'm in now, which is online music education. One of the reasons I'm so excited about being in this space, and one of reasons I love it so much, because I get to work with artists every day. And what we do is we help artists make a living by teaching what they know. And it's one of those things where, you know, I'll talk to an artist and they'll say, you know, I'm not really a teacher, I don't really think about that. I'm not an educator, it's not what I do, I play music. And what we explained to them all the time is, that's not why we have you here, we have you here, because you're expressive, you're doing something creative and magical. And people just want to know how you do what you do. They don't need you to teach you when the war of 1812 happened, they don't need you to teach them, you know, musical theory and notation, they want to hear how you got that sound, you know, it's a legacy thing. It's, you know, it's it's cementing your craft and your artistry. And that's because, again, the music business, that the part of the business that I'm in now, is not about facts and figures. It's not like other kinds of online education, where you take a test at the end to determine Did you retain all that knowledge, it's not about facts or data, it's about the connection between your brain right, and the instrument, that's a guitar or a bass or a mandolin or, or a banjo or lap steel or whatever, right? Or, or studio musician, if you're learning how to produce a track, you know, and you're, you're using a, you know, a digital audio workstation of some kind. And so it's really about helping artists connect with their most passionate fans. You think about, you know, any artists who, you know, circle offense, right. And you've got people who are just there because they love the artists, maybe they're sort of casual fans, they like the music, or maybe they saw them live, or they heard them on the radio, or they heard them on Spotify, right? But then there's like that center core of fans who are super dedicated, some of those people also play music, by themselves, maybe just for pleasure, or maybe they, you know, maybe they've got a cover band with their friends. Or maybe they you know, play weddings and Bar Mitzvahs, and, you know, whatever. Right? And, and then, you know, there's some folks who just do it at home because they love it or what have you. And those people want to know, about how an artist you know, basically develop their craft. And that's a big part of what we do. So people ask me all the time they go, okay, so what business is true fire studios, and I say, what's the online music education business? That's sort of the I would say that that's the literal answer. The real answer is that We're in the self actualization business, right? Because when you're, if you love music, and you play, learning how to play, and getting better at your craft is a window to becoming more of the person you really want to be. Some people meditate, some people jog. Some people do yoga, right? Some people go for long hikes, some people pull out their guitar or their piano or what have you. And that's how they become more who they are. So it's kind of like magic, at the end of the day. Anyway, I could talk about this all day, I'm very excited, I'm not gonna let you get a word in edgewise. But that's why I love it. And the idea that I could, I could run a company that helps artists make money in a way that doesn't interfere with the other stuff that they do. You know, a lot of the decisions that artists need to make in this day and age, it's like this or that, right? I got to do this. But then I can't do that. If I'm going to go on tour here, then I can't record and blah, blah, blah. And like, time is a, you know, a limited resource for sure for everybody. But when we talk about creating music, education, that doesn't compete with you being on the road, it doesn't compete with your recorded music, it doesn't compete with your podcast, it's a completely different thing. And it's a new opportunity. And so that's to me, like the ability to make a difference in the lives of an artist, lives of artists, plural, because we have 500 educators in our network. That to me is super, super special. It wakes me up every day with a smile on my face.
How do you even because I know even before we were recording, I mean, you have so much experience. But what was the burning fire under you to say, Okay, I need to start a platform. And I need to help artists learn that there are other ways to get your name out there and to make money. And then setting it all up and building it out and tracking it all. And I mean, that's fine. I love the digital age is because we can track freakin everything. That's right. I mean, it's,
for better or for worse, for better or for worse. Let's be honest. Let's be honest. Facebook. Oh, come on. Now you know how it goes.
I mean, it's just yesterday, I had a meeting about place. And the guys, we're like, you have the big Alexa. And you have the apple mini thing. I'm like, Guys, I have a lot of tech gadgets around here. And I'm like, do you want me to unplug them, we unplug them every once in a while if you're going to drop some like really confidential information here. But I mean, as a marketer, like I, this is a good thing. It's not a bad thing. And I would rather look at ads and things that I'll actually talk about and what they're like, Yeah, can you just plug them?
I know some people like that I actually paranoid. Yeah, well, you know it, I get it. What I would say about that is, is I think there's a time and a place for everything. So I'll just say two things about that. One of them is, I can't tell you the number of times I have bought cool stuff, by seeing an ad on my Instagram feed, I'm not gonna lie so many times. And it's great. It's good. I love it all to affect very, it's at this point. Now very rarely Am I targeted with an ad that's not relevant to me. That's much, much, much better than a world in which you just get spammed with stuff that's not relevant for you. So if you can match the right audiences with the right products, and we use those same tools to promote true Firestudio. So we're all about that. So that's the first thing. The second thing I would say is that, you know, I've been lucky and fortunate enough to work on some of these platforms in their inception, we created a version of iHeartRadio for the Amazon Alexa platform at launch in 2014. So I've got a like a, you know, like a prototype, you know, janky version of Alexa in my kitchen. I still use it all the time. It's eight years old. I still use it all the time. I think one of people, you know, people at home will maybe appreciate this once I put a little too close to the toaster oven. And so one side slightly melted a little bit. Still works great. Still works great. Good job, Jeff Bezos, that thing. You know, you can drop a bomb on that thing. It still works. So I and I love I love that device. I love to be able to just talk to it and say play this song. I that is game changing for me or play this podcast. I use it for both of those things. And I love it. Sometimes I'll have it read me the news. So I do think you know, yeah, you you've given up a little bit of privacy for sure. Who knows who's listening? Maybe who cares. I mean, I think sometimes we fool ourselves into thinking that, you know, the, the conversation we're having in our kitchen is really that important. It's just not nobody cares. Everyone can relax. And then there's some stuff that's creepy, you know, election interference, all that other stuff. But that's that's for another podcast. That's not for this podcast. I don't see politics. Yeah. So God God bless you for We don't we don't want to go there. So it's but it's it. These are tools, I think that have been transformative. And they've been transformative. I think, for entrepreneurs and artists alike. I just think about the way that artists have an opportunity to reach fans. I think about like, so we've got, we got a division inside the company that just focuses on EDM dance music, so a ton of house and techno among other formats, right. And, you know, we'll do a course with an artist like Ferry Corsten, or, or Roger Sanchez, or like any one of these big DJs, who like really understands how to make music and, you know, mix music and build tracks from scratch, right? And we're always saying to them, Hey, you know, because we're in business with the artists, let's have you promoted through your socials, that's the best way to it's the best way to reach out and they, they're happy to do it, because they're going to make money. Right? Right. We're in business together, we helped to produce the course, they helped to sell it, we split the money, everybody goes away happy. And if we didn't have those channels, it would be really hard to do this business. It'd be really hard, right? Yeah, those, you know, the artists have those connections, and there's going to be some substantial proportion of their followers who are like, Oh, I'd like to learn about that, for sure. And coming from them. It's so unique, and it's so powerful, and so intimate. So I actually think that there's a lot a lot to be said, for this. And I'm sure the people on your who are listening right now are going well, that's great. If you're like a worldwide famous DJ, what do I do? And you know, it's the same thing as everybody else, you put one foot in front of the other, right? If you're building an audience for a podcast, or building a social audience, you know, do you have a schedule on what you post? Are you focused on key topics that you know, are interested people like, what does your brand stands for? Do you have a cadence? Do you have a voice? Are you developing that every day? And you know, twice, twice, twice a day and three times on Sunday? And it's all about that stick to itiveness and that relentlessness. And you know, over time, you can get there, there's no question. But like you said at the top of the at the top of the show, doesn't come without hard work.
It doesn't Nothing's easy. It's just it's not. And I mean, one of my best friends who's a he moved to Nashville and 20 something years ago, we were having dinner the other night, and he his publisher, I think he said he writes 20 He has to write 20 songs a week. And then he like, does these collaborations. Yeah, right. Like in my head. I'm like, what? And so they just came out of this session. And they had written like, the next number one. I mean, he has a lot of number one hits. So it's like, you know, I'm like, Okay, well, who's who do you think will pick it up and all that and he's like, singing it to me. It's literally on a fucking napkin. It's just so funny to me. But like when I'm going to play, so pick up his guitar and like, start playing. I was like, oh, that sounds cool. Like their last big one of their last big right, Scott? Like Apple picked it up for versatile, you know, so it's like, but if you would have asked him like when he moved here, we met 20 something years ago, because he moved here. He's like, Well, I guess I'm gonna have to DJ like, I'm gonna have to do something on the side too, until I can, like make money as a writer. And he seems good but like he never wants to be in front of people. But over the pandemic, I got involved in tic toc because my niece's was a big freakin joke. But I was a dancer and I'm like, I could out dance have to be if you just shut up for three hours and let me do three zoom meetings. We will do the dances and they're like you're going to do with me I was like, absolute freaking lately. I will. And so they didn't believe me. And so then I started studying the business model of it. And and I've seen like, people in Nashville, no one really knew who they were. They can their, their voices are incredible. And they were discovered during the pandemic through tick tock, and some of them don't have agents. And one guy in particular just does these pop ups only for his tic tock audience and he tells them where he's going to be the morning of and then he like fills the place. And so I'm telling my friend this I'm like, Dude, why are you not on Tik Tok? He's like, Oh, it's just a kid app today and I was like, you sound like old person. I'm like the average age right now. Is 42 I just like what you just said I have bought so much shit from tech. I like every every I like every my favorite bra she fit came from tick tock. I'm trying to collaborate with them now. Okay. I would not have known about them if I wasn't fed an ad on tick tock. So I mean, cleaning my ears. I was y'all I was like, I can't hear anything. Well, I do kind of have like congestion in my ear some flying is like a like got this thing to like clean it. It was a freakin thing. It was a DM to me on Tik Tok. They're like, hey, we'll send this to you. We do video tell us You know how it went, I was like, Yes, I love to do shit like that. My ears need to be cleaned, I can't hear a damn thing. So it's just like, the opportunities that we don't like that's not on my vision board. That's not on my goal sheet. But when you put yourself out there and you show up regularly, people are watching. And then like, opportunities present themselves all the time. Now you have the right to say yes or no. And then sometimes there's like rules that you have to play by, you know, by the manager or the publisher, or publish publisher publicist, like there's all these rules. Yeah. But I'm just fascinated how people in the music industry specifically, they're sitting on gold, and people do care. But then it's like, they have these limiting beliefs that they can't do something to, like, move themselves toward, I'm going to give him your information because he needs to be on your platform, my friends, some of my friends, and I'm just like, why are you guys thinking? And I mean, even somebody said it today, in one of the podcasts, she's like, well, I don't have a degree in that. That's not what I went to school for. And I'm like, Oh, my God, I didn't go to school for Well, I mean, I went to school to be a psychologist, and I use it every day. It's good foundation. But that's not what I what I do, like you said is like magical for people. And it's, you can't really replicate that, which isn't great for a business model. You can't scale that. But you can scale things around it. And like, that's what you figured out. But like, was there one thing where you're like, I have to do this, like, we have to have a platform, man who was your very first artist,
that's really so. So I want to make sure I'm being really clear with you. So I was actually hired by the guys who started some of these companies to help them build it up. So I came into, excuse me into truefire Studios, at the behest of the founders and some of the investors. Okay, that's hold who pulled me away from my other my previous job running a podcasting platform. So So I want to dig in on a couple things that you said, which is like, you know, this idea that it's not for me, I think one of the ways that you can keep your life and your career interesting is by reminding yourself to be curious. And it's incredible how you can override that dismissive vibe that you give yourself, just by demanding from yourself a little curiosity, and it's a gift to give yourself. So if someone says, Well, you know, this tick tock thing came across in the pandemic, and it's, you know, it's a dance app for kids, right. That's how it was written about everywhere. It's not like there's every human interest on the planet is, is represented in the app. And so you just have to have a little bit of curiosity. I remember I had to, I had to check myself. So when, when I was at iHeart, I was on the digital side of the business and the events side of the business. I did a whole bunch of stuff over there. And we, we did a partnership with Tik Tok, where I'm sorry with with Snapchat before Tik Tok was when Tik Tok was still musically. So we did a partnership with Snapchat. And I remember thinking to myself, well, I'll do the partnership that sounds interesting. I'll get the team to work on some content for them, we'll do a channel. But like Snapchats, not for me, that's for teenagers. And I caught myself and I said, How can you be a good partner? Either to the people who are developing the content, or it is the folks that Snapchat themselves if you're not curious about the product and paying attention, and you just got to remind yourself, and even you don't have to start with the presupposition that it's for you. You just start with there's something happening in the world. And I want to check it out. Maybe you've got kids? Or maybe you have friends who have kids? Or maybe you've got little nieces and nephews or cousins. So aren't you interested in what they're up to? Don't you want to know more about their life don't want to be relevant for them? Don't you want to have insights into how their lives are being shaped? That's all it takes is to shift your perspective a little bit. Right in the in the case of online music education, answering your question directly. I was approached by one of the founders, I was actually approached by this incredible guy who's now the CEO of audible, which is, you know, the, the, you know,
yeah, exactly. Favorite book app.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Audio, Audio. Badly audible, right, that. So he reached out to meet we knew people in common. And he was like, you know, I'm really interested in this music education category. And I'm like, are you talking about videos on YouTube? And again, I did catch myself. And like, this guy's amazing. He's such an incredible guy. He's friends of friends of mine. I didn't know him personally. But I kind of, you know, learned about him and I got to meet him. And I just thought, Wow, what a wonderful, amazing guy he is. If he's interested, I'm going to check myself I better start to pay attention. So I started to dig in and I realized a couple of things. One was like I'm I play guitar, I used to take a lesson from a guy like back in the old days, you'd go to a coffee shop and there'd be a picture of a guy. Like, Pete will teach you how to play guitar. Do you like rip a little number? Cell phone number up the bottom of the flyer? You see the little jokes now where people are like, you know, the Lionel Richie. Hello, is it me? Are you looking for is it you know, the whole kind of, right and, and so that's how I learned how to play guitar. And it's like, you know, one day some guy, we kind of a weird guy showed up my door, ding dong. I'm like, okay, weird person come into my house and teach me how to play guitar, it's got to be an easier way. Right? There's got to be no offense to those lovely people who go around and teach people music. But there's a thing about the internet is, it's the same thing with Snapchat, it's the same thing with Tik Tok, you just get exposed to artists, creatives, content, experiences, stories, because that's really what's all about right? That you just wouldn't ever get if you had to rely on ripping the phone number of the bottom of the flyer at your local coffee shop. That gives you access to a couple of 100 or a couple of 1000 people in your direct radius of your neighborhood. How about the whole world? How about the opportunity to learn from someone who's from Italy, or Spain, or Portugal or Brazil or Argentina? or China or Japan? Who knows, right? Who wants to limit themselves I you know, I live in Brooklyn, New York. And so I don't have to live them. I've got the you know, got the whole universe right here. But this idea that these technologies can be transformative in a positive way, I think we focus a lot on how they can be really negative, because that's just sort of like the story right now. But you know, I was, I was basically challenged to sort of dig in. And I said, wow, there's an opportunity to do something really special in the business at a time when things were really changing. A lot of things have been changing for 20 years, but they keep changing. And then the minute I took the job literally that week, I took the job, the pandemic, just like the shutdown happened, right? So um, march 2020, stuck at home working from home, basically, for the first time in my life, I'd never worked from home before. I'd always gone to an office someplace. So
did you really like what the hell is happening? Well, I
mean, I think we're just all worried because I was in New York, and you know, New York was super crazy to be, we would go to sleep every night and get woken up by the sound of ambulances, because people were just getting carted off to the hospital because nobody knew what was going on. And, and, you know, there was a bright side to that, too, which is people were stuck at home, and they had that guitar that was, you know, gathering dust in the corner there like, well, no better time than now. And it was just like, it was just like, you know, pure jet fuel, you know, sprinkled on the top. And the only bummer was that you really had to work with artists sort of, at a distance, we couldn't work with artists in person couldn't get people into the studio, which was the same thing in almost every business that had like, you know, a location. But at the same time, I think it just opened so many people's eyes, you know, learners, or students eyes to like the fact that this could be done, but also the artists in terms of like, Hey, this is really an option for me, not only to make a contribution, but really to connect with my, you know, my most passionate fans, you know, on these platforms. And so I think in that way, it really was transformative in a positive way, because it gave artists, I always think more options for artists is everything you want. That's just what you want to give people who are creative, more options to express their creativity and promulgate that creativity everywhere that they can. And if you're doing that, you're probably doing all right. So that was it for me, I just sort of dug in. So that and I was like, Well, this sounds really interesting. And I love music. And I love the idea of working with artists and helping them make a living. That's simple. And I love the idea just myself as someone who plays guitar badly. Like, you know, I'm, I'm like the center target for this stuff, right? Like I am the Customer. Yeah, so putting yourself in a business like that, where you feel like you can identify, you know, with the products. And you know, with the with the whole mission is just super powerful. So that's kind of how I answered that question.
It. No, I mean, I'm just amazed at how one app being curious. I like that word. It's interesting, because I asked one of my friends, I'm like, why won't you look at it and get ideas. And a friend of mine was like, Well, I have an addiction. And I'm like, Oh, it's okay. Give me your iPhone. And you can go into your settings and like set it up on the app to only get so long on certain apps, right? It's like Right. And he's like, of course leave it to profits No, like,
and grayscale grayscale on that people do that. Otherwise people just use black and white instead of color and it just make it just sort of shuts your brain it shuts all of that addiction stuff off and you're well some, I suppose for some people, but I've heard that too.
I'm just like, Dude, you have so much potential sitting in front of you, but you okay? I, I don't want to like send you into Tik Tok a or something. But it's like, you can have some discipline like, you know, put some things around that. I mean, some of his he was telling me some of his friends. One of the guys he's like the Applebee's on a date. Talking about like that. His daughter. Yeah. And so I knew who Walker outside. I'm like, oh, that's the same dude. Like, I didn't even put it together because I wasn't even paying attention. I was learning to dance from somebody else. I'm like, Oh, I didn't realize that was his song. We work with people that sing and are in the public all the time. I don't know who they are. I don't watch TV. I don't do them. I just don't I live in a bubble. And if you're not part of the bubble, if we're not doing something for you, why would I waste energy on it?
That song? That song is a monster. How are you like it's just in the ether? How can you not hear that song? I mean, it's also all over Tik Tok, too.
Oh, well, I, I hear I get all my music from Tik Tok first, okay. And then I go to follow Apple Music. And then I make my little tic tock playlist that then I work out at the gym too. And then everybody else at the gym has to be subjected to the top tick tock songs because no one wants to take control of the speakers, but I will with the app. I'm just like, whatever. Some people play really bad music at the gym. I'm like, super salty about it sometimes. But like, I like good music. And but I just, it's crazy to me how well people have overnight, not that it's an overnight success by any means. But one viral video or one thing can just change for you overnight. And the one thing I love about like really understand the business model, tick tock is that it removes the barrier between you and the artist. And like my one of my favorite artists, because she Lizzo on tick tock, she's hilarious, and she's met all these people. And she's all like body positivity. And I love that. And but think about, I'm just I would love to see like data on how her sales and her music has increased and grown since she really got into Tik Tok with the pandemic, and really letting her guard down, you know, talking about her way and talking about depression and all these other things. I just think that when you feel like you have a personal relationship, even though it's through a screen sales go up. Yeah. When people know who you are as a person. I mean, right?
Absolutely, absolutely intimacy. It's all about, it's all about that sense of intimacy and relatedness. And that's powerful and very, very hard to fake. So when you see people who do it really, really well Lizzo being a great example. She's also like a digital native and grew up inside of the culture. But you know, Megan, the stallion, same thing. She's very, very online. And a lot of these artists are and you know, some of these biggest the biggest artists out there. You know, you can't imagine what their career would look like if they hadn't been able to leverage social media. I mean, there's, there's so many that come to mind. And I would, I would say is that I always think a lot about young artists, I actually know a couple of young artists who I'm friendly with, and who I know who are like painfully shy, you know, and they really can open up when they're on stage, and are just extraordinary. You know, singers are songwriters. But they're not, maybe they're users of social media, but they don't see themselves as creators in that way. And the one thing I would say about the music industry now that I think is kind of, you know, there's so many tools now for self publishing, whether you're talking about actually putting music out, you don't necessarily need a label. There's so many advantages now. But at the same time, there is a requirement that you not only be an artist, but you also be a marketer of your own brand. And that does leave some people behind. But you know, the upside to that is it's very hard to do anything alone. I mean, you know, maybe there's a couple of artists that can get to a certain point alone. And so the earlier in your career that you realize that you need help, the better off you're going to be the hardest thing in the world for some people, for a lot of people, I think for me to harnessing worlds to ask for something. Nobody wants to feel like nobody wants to feel like they're being a drag or like they're mooching or they're, you know, they're there. You're a downer, or you know, some people are just like, I don't feel like I deserve it. But you know, the biggest gift you can give yourself after curiosity is the permission to ask for help. Right. And you know, particularly for young artists, that people are just drawn to creators, and when people recognize that you've got talent, they're just so many people out there who want to help you. I mean, think about the number of people who are in the music industry, or in entertainment, generally speaking, or in some kind of like, either publishing or TV or what have you. They can't be in front of the camera, they can't write the words, they can't produce the, but what they can do is they can help in some other way, right. And it's all about finding your tribe and all about understanding where you have strengths and where you have weaknesses. And the sooner you get that, the sooner you can get the help you need. But the key is being willing to ask for the help that you need. What's the worst thing that happens? If you ask for help, the worst thing that happens is you you're no, you're going to use throughout your life, you may as well get used to it, you're going to hear no all the time. So you may as well get used to it, what's the best thing that can happen is that you can change your life. And by the way, here's the other thing that people forget all the time. When you ask for help, and you get the help, you're not getting your life changed only, you're also changing the life of the person who helps you. In so many people, particularly when they get older, they say to themselves, the most amazing and special thing that happened to me was my ability to contribute in this way to other people, not what they got, not their success, but how they were able to impact the lives of other people. So just if that can help you, particularly if you're listening now and you're thinking, oh, you know, so hard to ask, or I don't want to, I don't want to appear like I'm you know, like, I'm just looking for a handout. Remember that it changes people's lives people to give you that help and to contribute to you in some way, shape, or form. So it's not just about what, what you need. It's about putting that out into the universe.
Yeah, it's crazy to me how many people so we get a lot of resumes for like internships because girls think they want to, like be a wedding planner, or do these big events, or, you know, just in the front of the camera, it seems so glamorous, right? And listen, like you're saying, with all the bands and stuff you've worked with, like, there's amazing opportunities, but it comes with her work, too. And so I'm like, well, that's great that you think that but this isn't TV, and that should scripted. And this is real life. And so you're gonna learn more in eight weeks of real life than watching that series for four years. So let's just get down to reality. Like, do you love people? Do you love them when they're really drunk? Do you love them? When they're shitting? Are you gonna clean it out? Like, how are you gonna react to these things. And it's so funny because like, 48 hours into an event, like you just know, you can't teach customer service and proactiveness you can teach some things. But it's just, some people have this intuition of like, well, let me help you, or let me make it better kind of thing. It's just you kind of know if they're gonna make it in hospitality or not, like pretty quickly. But with music, I feel like there's people that have talent, but then they go, and they hire the voice coaches, and the vocalist and the businessman, you know, to, to help them become better. And that usually, hopefully, you know, pushes you forward in your music career. It's just, I don't know, there's so many similarities in terms of like business and entrepreneurship. But one thing I have learned, working with a lot of artists, they are not business people at all. That's right. They will give away the farm. I'm like, wait, no, I'm like, No, that no, that T shirt will Yes, you can sell that, but we're going to attract, right? And then we're going to partner with like, they're just that's just not how they think. And so with your platform, I mean, I would think that this is like the best thing ever, because you're giving them an opportunity to come on. And if you guys prove it, I mean, it's a lot to produce a course you guys like it's not that easy. It may Yes, you even if you have an iPhone and you have iMovie and you can edit it and then put it up on Kajabi or whatever. It's like, it's a lot of freakin work. And just being a creative if I didn't have people that actually do the work, there's no way any of the show would ever get done. And that's what I mean you're giving them an amazing opportunity. So how, like, if an artist wants to become part of your platform, like what is that process? Like? Why like what happens yeah,
yeah, we have a we have an Artist Relations in a Korean Killer team who work with all different kinds of artists. And, you know, we have three studios. We have a studio down in St. Pete, we have one in Colorado, and we have one out in Napa, California. And we've done shoots in Nashville, for sure you bet your bottom dollar we have. And you know if anyone who's listening to this wants to learn more about the platform, or is an artist and things they might like to teach, just email me, I'm Owen at true fire calm, easy enough to reach me. And happy to direct you and give you any feedback or advice that you might you might like, It'd be my pleasure to do that. Yeah, so we think about it a lot. A lot of it is, you know, what do we know about our students? What sorts of things do they want to learn? What kind of artists are they interested in? So there's a lot of thought, a lot of thought that goes into not only who we reach out to, or what sorts of artists we prioritize, but also the curricular development. You know, I, if you're in marketing, it's kind of it's corny. I came up with this last year, I was like, We need a simple way to think about like our USP, our unique sales proposition, right. Are you selling? And you know, if you're in marketing, everyone knows CTA call to action, right? Yeah. Don't we have a CTA to curriculum tools and artists? And if it's not one of those three things, I don't want to know about it. Right. It's like, okay, yeah, yes, we have to pay the we have to pay the electricity bill. Yes, we have to make sure the sites are up and running, and the apps are working the way they ought to work. But at the end of the day, our secret sauce is some combination of the curriculum, the learning tools, and the artists, CTA curriculum tools, artists love it. And I say it all the time. And, you know, I think a lot about marketing too, because obviously, marketing is a life's the lifeblood of our business. So I like it, I like it, it has that symmetry. And that, you know, we're thinking about that, as you said, and focus is every thing because you can't Everything can't be everything, everything to everyone, you can't do all the things and you spread yourself too thin, it just means you're gonna be doing a whole bunch of things, and none of them well. So you know what, it's another thing I have to remind myself of every day, it's easy to say and sometimes super, super hard to do. It's just like saying, Oh, be curious. You know, it's it's a muscle that you have to develop. It's like going to the gym and then taking the playlist over right, Angela? Yeah, like, Yeah, think about that, though. For a second. It's like, what you're saying is not only do I want a need to go to the gym, but I feel so comfortable there. And I feel like it's such a part of my routine. And it's so endemic and critical to me being who I am and feeling good and being effective. I'm going to make sure even the music is right. Like that's dedication. Everybody should think like that. You know, what's going to happen again, what's the worst thing that happens if you if you say, hey, I want to change the music? Maybe the guy or the gal who runs a gym says no, but probably they say sure. What do I want to listen to? Don't be afraid to ask. Come on. Now, Angela's people,
she was just like, give me your phone. I'm like who's like give me your log into Sona.
There you go. I think to me, like you're more of a an asking for forgiveness rather than permission.
100%.
That's another good lesson, by the way.
100 me like, What do you mean, there was an orange cone there? And I wasn't supposed did I get out? Move it? I did? Oh, well. Maybe I did do that. I don't remember doing it. But I do it all the time. It's just like, No, I'm like, why can't we go back here? Why can't we hang out? Why can't we do that I'm not going to kill anybody. Why you have stupid fucking rules. And it's putting a damper on people's creativity of an experience that they could have when they walk in somewhere. It's just it like the wow factor of a feeling of someone walking into a party or a wedding, or whatever. Or or a, you know, a brand new artist on stage or somebody that they can't wait to see. Justin Bieber, somebody big is up there. You know, it's a feeling that you have. And if you walk in and you have a really bad first experience, you have a bad taste in your mouth. No, I don't I choose to not let it ruin my workout. If for some reason I can't control but I'm always always control the music because I walk in it's like, horrible. And if you can hear the other trainers talking what you're working out, the music isn't loud enough. Like you shouldn't be able to hear that's what I'm saying to my trainer, right? I mean, it's a rule. It's like HIPAA. I'm like, I don't know. It's just funny. But I'm a little high maintenance, but there's like a cutout thing upstairs and the owner. He's like God, you and your high maintenance music client. I'm like, Listen, if this were my gym, and maybe one day an investor will come to me and be like, hey, I want to invest in your DJ gem with like fun lights and like have a DJ. And we would have themes every day. And I'm like, What are your thoughts on like, me getting a DJ and like putting it up? And he's like, Oh, that's storage up there. Like, right, but that how often do you need that storage and he's like, shit just goes up there, we don't need it. I'm like, exactly, throw it in the trash, rent that out for $800 a month for that. And then the guy get your business DJ. And it's just like, some people think so incredibly differently. And he just kind of looks at me, like, I have 10 heads, like, I don't need anything else to do quit talking. And just this is another
thing in business. This is this is another thing in business, I think that people get hung up on and you know, you ever have a situation where you're, again, you're being curious, you're asking why why do we do it this way? And so often the answer is, because that's how we've always done it. Yep. Hello. And that will be a good sign that it's probably a good time to look at that, you know, I, I came into this business. And you know, as I said, there were a couple of businesses already. And we, what we did was we put four different businesses together underneath a single banner. And you know, ask questions, like, you know, why do we market like this? That's, you know, that's how we do it. Why do we charge this amount for subscription? You know, it's kind of how do we come up with pricing for courses, and that's kind of we always, so again, nothing wrong, they were very successful doing it this way. But it's always good to take a fresh look at things and ask the right questions. And don't be afraid to ask questions. That's the thing. It's like received wisdom, probably is received wisdom for a reason. But you never know. Until you ask. I had someone come to me today. And they're saying, hey, you know, like, when we launch courses, you know, for truefire. We don't always send emails to every, you know, every one of the active users, we have segments, we have different segments. And that makes sense. Because you want to segment stuff that makes, right. But I said, Well, if it's a big artist, you send it to everybody. I mean, just so people know that there's new stuff coming out. And no, no. And I'm wondering about that. And, and she said to me, I'm wondering about that, and I go, that's a good thing to wonder about, I go have you asked, Have you asked, she's like, Yeah, I was just gonna do it. I'm like, that's good. And you should also know why she's changing. You know, she's new marketing person, she's brilliant. She's doing great work, and she's changing the stuff. But I also encouraged her to ask and be curious. There's always, you know, every once in a while, there's a reason, it might not be a good reason. But there's a reason and you want to know, it just comes down to like, you know, it's curious, it's, it comes down to curiosity, and you know, in checking your work, checking your work, you know, and being really on top of stuff. And that's that, that is a that's hard, but the details sometimes are everything. Now, and I'm not even like a great detail person. Like I like to be a vision person, I like to be a big picture person. Every once in a while though, you got to get into the details, particularly when you think about marketing your business, you better know the details. Right? Like, why gotta be clear. Got to be clear. How are you describing it? What tools and channels? How are you investing? All this stuff is critical. And it doesn't matter? If we're talking about a couple 100 Or a couple million, you have to be thinking, you know, you could do a lot with a $400 Facebook buy. You could do a lot with a, you know, with a $500, Google sem buy, like, you know, make sure you are watching the details.
Yep. And then the girl, if I were her, I'd be like, Okay, I'm just going to do this. However, before I do it, I'm going to screenshot all the analytics, and then I'm going to make sure everything's being tracked. And then I'm going to see if anybody catches on for maybe 30 days. 6090 Even better. And then 90 days later come back and be like, Look, I grew it like this.
Exactly. And that's exactly what we have.
That's like a dream person that you have there. She's great.
She's great. She's great very often. No, and she's she you know, and that's the other benefit, I think of working inside of the music space, particularly this space is that people want to work in this business, right? They really do. And like you said earlier, like people like, Oh, I really love wedding planning. I saw that movie once with Jennifer Lopez. And they're now and all of a sudden, right? And it's like, Okay, that's great. And, you know, but then you have to go and you have to actually learn the business and do the work and all that other stuff. But it is a benefit to work in the business because in this business because it just attracts a lot of people who, you know, who feel the same way about music that you and I feel like that, that it's such an important part of our lives. And you know, for me, as I said, it's it changed my life. It's saved my life. And so you you get it's hard to find good people these days. So it's really hard. Yes, really. I mean, people have heard, it's hard and people have choices like they didn't have before and there's just a lot they're like a lot There's a lot of demand for good people. And so it helps to have and so if you don't, you know, let's say you're not working to music, but you better be able to tell you know, someone who comes to work for you. Why it's why what you're doing matters, what your mission is. And, you know, having that directedness and having that sense of a mission really can go a really long way.
It really can. Okay, one last question. So for every day, just however, you run your day, is there one thing from a productivity perspective that you have to do every single day are like, it's just not gonna happen? Like, what? thing?
Yeah, I'm gonna have to give you a couple answers. Because there's like, there's like a new agey answer. There's like, a new agey answer. And then there's like, also, like, there's some just physical stuff and whatever. So you know, I mean, I could talk about, you know, my email habits. It's boring. Like, who cares? Like, I use Slack? Okay, fine. We all use Slack. It's great. Whatever. Like, by the way, wasn't it funny when slacks are doing TV commercials, and people were like, I have PTSD. I hear the slack bomb. I can't hear that on TV. It's like reminded me of work. And like, Oh, I'd like my entire Twitter feed was people losing their mind over that. So you know, one thing that I wish I did every day, but I'm getting better at it. But that really helps me. It just helps the quality of my thinking. It's just sitting quietly with my thoughts with my eyes closed, watching my breath for 10 to 15 minutes. If I can do that, I call it mindfulness, or meditation. Call it the call map. Call it headspace. I don't care what you call it. Yeah, I'm not I'm not telling anyone on you know who's listening or you to become a Buddhist, that's not my point. My point is, is that you're yet I love it go for it, is you got to quiet your, your your mind a little bit so that you can actually be present and focus. And I can tell you that I feel the difference. And the other piece of it was what we were talking about, and people are probably tired of it is I workout three times a week, and I never miss it. I do not miss the workout. Yeah, I don't either have to, I have to. Because I just cannot function. And also the other thing is like we just live in deeply anxious, and weird times. And one of the only ways that I've found I mean, unless you want to drink a bottle of wine every night, and some people do God bless you. I can't, I can't I can't handle it just makes me you know, on the weekend. Sure. But like I can't during the week, though. It's the exercise that keeps me from like just going off the rails with worry and anxiety all the time. And that's, I was never someone who really stressed out about stuff too much. So I don't think it's so much. I mean, we all deal with stuff. We all have family, we all have lives and jobs. But you know, the world has become a deeply odd place. I mean, just think of the pandemic think how it's just, you know, completely uprooted our lives. So, you know, I know you asked me about routine, but what I would say is everybody do we need to be kind to ourselves, you really need to give ourselves some grace, because it's just so hard right now. And even if you have a job you love like you do, or I do, you still have to give yourself some grace, because it's tough. Our lives have been turned upside down, we have to acknowledge that not not so we can sit here in in wallow in pity, but just to acknowledge that it's real. And, you know, if we don't take care of ourselves, it's gonna be hard for us to anyone else to do it. That's for sure. Anyway, I got a question. That's all the time not the question. You not the answer.
No, but it's good. And I think that like it most everyone that no one has said. Because every day to yourself, like quit self bullshit set, like, I don't know, I can't even relate to that. It's like positive. Okay, we learn from that, that sucks. We're never doing that again. So it makes us sharper, it might cost a few $1,000 of mistakes, but whatever. Like, we can make more just let's keep going. And we're not gonna live in the past. I just I can't. I mean, I don't even remember things sometimes. And I'm like, Oh, let me go back to my calendar. That was like, five years ago of like, slept. I couldn't tell you what I had on yesterday. I couldn't do it. I yesterday. I don't know. I can't remember if I turn my curling iron off. So 10 times before I leave the house because I don't leave. You know, for a year and a half. I didn't leave. So yeah, I believe shit on. And so you get out of that routine, but like we've developed new routines because our lives have all changed. And so the whole point is like shifting your priorities and what's the one thing and I think that's really good if you sit for that 15 minutes or 10 minutes or whatever, to just no notifications, no phone, no distractions, nobody else Just be quiet, or like your gym three times, three times a week like, you meet those goals. And I know like, if I can't go out, it puts me in a bad mood now don't take it out on anybody. You know, feel the
difference. But you feel the difference. Yeah, no. So like people, people who've been in the military will say stuff like, you know, make my bed every morning because at least when I know, I've accomplished that one thing, and once you've accomplished one thing you can build on that success. And it's amazing how, you know, like, this whole thing about productivity. So you're sitting there, and you might get distracted, but like, something comes up, like, oh, there's some, like, you have to deal with your bank or something like that. So you deal with that. And you finish that and you feel like, Oh, I did something it doesn't need with your work, it can trick your brain into all sorts of ways you have just as much work as you had before. But that little that maybe that little dopamine hit of like, Oh, I'm effective, I did that thing. And you can trick yourself in a positive way you can develop the right kind of mental habits and models. So like something as simple as I get up, and you make your bed, hey, you know, you got one thing off the list today, you did one thing that was productive, because you're gonna get to go sleep in a made bed tonight, instead of that mess that you usually sleep in. Right? Those things matter. People think they don't matter. But you know, I'm a little bit older. And so I've learned that those things matter. So for me, it just sitting quietly with my eyes closed, just watching my breath. And you know, the funny thing about is you just get distracted, because that's life, but that's fine. Don't be hard on yourself and just come back to your breath again, and, and you know, everyone's got little thing or go for a walk, go for a walk sitting in front of your computer all day long. People think that like, hey, we can just be productive for 10 hours straight. That's just not how the human mind
Oh, no, I got a treadmill desk, I'm gonna stand up desk. And it changed my life during the pandemic, because I'm like, A, how am I gonna get 1020 30 Like, 1000s 30,000 these groups, you know, that are like connected to your Apple Watch. And I like to when I'm not super competitive, I'm just kidding. I am about very certain things. But it's like, I'll sit up, you know, once it, it turns at midnight, even though I might because I work really late. I mean, we parties. So it's like my hours or sleeping hours are weird. But it's like, if it rolls over, people can still like see it, you know, in your little group. And not that I need the motivation. But it's accountability, to make sure that you're prioritizing. And the same thing with sleep, you know, my watch, like tells me with my sleep, my trainer can see, you know, the different patterns and this the accountability that someone is they're looking out for you. And they're, they're being paid to look out. I mean, that's their job. And so it helps, especially as an entrepreneur, if you own a business, and now everyone working from home because they don't have a lot of some people don't have a lot of oversight, they felt a little lost. And so hooking up with it like an accountability partner, just to make sure that like you're doing the things you want to do. And putting those first going back to what you're saying and what my mother says, If you don't take care of yourself, you can't take care of anybody. And she I mean, she was right. I mean, I would work myself to death until a mentor nabbed me up he's like, What the hell are you doing? Like I don't know what I'm doing. I think a business school have no freaking clue. So you know, you can learn and shift but it's important to recognize those things. So
I did go to business school and I liked it just fine, but it doesn't teach you anything that you know about life it just you know, it's just interesting educational stuff. So you're right I mean, you're not going to learn how to manage your time in business school, you're not going to learn how to set boundaries that are appropriate for yourself in business school, you're not going to learn how to take care of yourself physically, emotionally or mentally in business school and those are the things that really really matter I don't regret going to business school I just say that you know some of the hardest ones knowledge comes through just trial and error and experience and you know fallen on your face and that's fine that's that's that's how it goes. But this has been amazing it's been so great to connect with you Angela. Yeah, appreciate it this
this is awesome if people so if they want to check out true fire with they just go to fiverr.com
Yeah, so they can if you're interested if you're like an intermediate or advanced guitarist or you want to pick up your guitar again after you know a little while true fire calm is great. If you're if you're a beginner and you want to sort of dive in JAM play calm is great. If you're interested in electronic music, you're a DJ or you want to learn more about producing house techno any of those dance music genres, you go to fader pro.com. And then lastly, if you love bluegrass music, Americana country, artists works is a terrific platform part of our family as well with some amazing in fact, nationalism Guthrie trap is one of our great educators on that platform. Along with just dozens of others, we have 500 educators across the platform. And we would love for your folks to come on by and check it out.
And then if people want to reach out to you, I know you gave your email address out which that's nice. I'm a second email so I'm like You owe me if it doesn't go to my company email, which Amanda email does email I'm like, probably will never see it. But what is the best way for people to reach out to you
just reach out they can find me on LinkedIn. I'm Oh, Grover on Twitter. My own name oh, and Grover on LinkedIn. And you know, if you want to email me, it's Oh, and a true fire.com. Love to hear from you.
Awesome. Thank you so much for your time. This is awesome.
It was a lot of fun, Angela. So great. I love what you're doing here and appreciate the time.
Awesome. And everybody that's listening or watching thank you so much for tuning in to business unveiled. Be sure to catch us next week. Have a great day. Bye, y'all. That's it for this week's episode of business unveiled. Now that you have all the tools that you need to conquer the world and GSD get shit done. Would you share this with your friends and fellow business leaders? One thing that would really really help us and help new listeners is for you to rate the show. And leave a comment and Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you tune in and listen to business unveiled. You can check out the show notes at Angela proffitt.com/podcast and link up with us on social media so you can share your biggest insights. And I want to know your aha moments. Until next week, remember the profitable shifts and structures you're creating in your business. help you be more present in your life. So get out there and GSD

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Published: March 24, 2022

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