As business owners and entrepreneurs, chances are you're always looking for new and innovative ways to grow your business. One strategy that can be very effective is launching a membership program.
Membership programs allow your customers to become members to become a part of something bigger, sharpen their skills and receive exclusive benefits in return. There are many different ways to structure a membership program, so it's important to design one that fits your business needs and goals!
I’m so excited to have our guest, Lisa Prinic, Owner of Scaling Deep who will be sharing with us all about how to build a membership program for your business!
Why memberships are so popular and making a resurgence
How to overcome the ‘obstacles' of starting a membership
How to design a membership model based on your zone of genius AND clients' desired results.
How to determine the right place for a membership in your business.
What makes a successful membership model so you can effectively evaluate whether it's a right fit for you as you grow your creative business?
Why memberships are so popular and making a resurgence
MORE ABOUT OUR GUEST
Lisa helps impact-driven business owners dive deep into their unique value and business models to build sustainable & profitable brands. She helps them simplify & package their offers, increase their visibility with bolder messaging & strong positioning and scale with membership programs.
She is a trained business strategist and the host of the Scaling Deep Podcast. Lisa is a results-oriented, deep thinker who has a knack for “seeing” the value of each business and turning that into a pipeline of ideal clients.
A staunch believer in business simplicity and intention, Lisa helps her clients accomplish their goals by focusing on what to do AND what to ignore.
Y'all, it's Angela, I'm back for another episode of business unveiled. I am super excited for our guests today, because she's talking about something that a lot of people ask for, they want this thing they want this community, but they're not really sure the strategy, they're not really sure how to get there. And in theory, it sounds like this great thing. But there is a little bit of work that has to be done. So we're gonna talk about that today. So Lisa, welcome to the show.Continue Reading
Hey, it's so great to be here. Thanks, super excited.
Before we jump in and start talking about membership programs, and building communities and the strategies around that, will you take us back and share a little bit more about your past? And how have you gotten to where you are today?
Oh, my long winded story. You want to hear that? I'm waiting for people to
know of like, how, because we talked to so many amazing entrepreneurs who are like, Yeah, we do eight 910 figures online and it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, how did you get how did
you get there? That easy? Yeah, no, and I wouldn't say that I've, I have that sort of overnight sensations story at all, I actually have that slow growth story. So my, my slow growth story is that, I mean, in 2000 I can't remember six, I think I was like my friends going away for her fifth like kiteboarding trip this year, and I got stuck in a cubicle. I know, I'm bored. It's fun. And, um, and like, and I was stuck in a cubicle with my two weeks of holidays going like there's got to be more to life than this. And a couple you know, I did some exploring couple years later ended up taking my life coaching and thought, well, at least I will have some major personal development after I do this. So I then started what I thought was a business with my life coaching skills, which no one at the time knew what a life coach was. So think about that. 13 years ago, it was still like pretty new. Yeah. And I guess like I'd say in 2009 I started with a newsletter and I just was like, Hey, everyone, I've started this business and gradually over the years you know, I got some clients went through some like had a baby than a divorce. Like I went through some you know, busy baby not sleeping for a couple years. So it was hectic. Yeah, it was hectic. It was I was it was challenging. Sleep deprivation is not like there's no the brain fog is not a business thing. You can't work well with that it's really hard. So, you know, through all that, I knew that business was what I was most attracted to. Now, this is the problem of being in love with something that you don't necessarily have that like huge story. Like I hadn't run a really huge successful business or, you know, I'd help small businesses, I had been in kind of more management consulting before that. So I understood business and I was I'm very strategic brain. But I didn't actually have that. I know exactly how to do all this. So that was, again, that slow growth learning curve. In that had I started out with a really specific skill set, like Oh, I do copywriting or ads or something like that. I could have grown that part of the business faster because it's so niched and specialized and then opened up to more broader stuff. But that was something I didn't really figure out. And I was stubborn about what to do. So, you know, I ended up getting some business strategy training in 2015, which was that was quite life changing for me, because that gave me amazing tools that I could then use with my clients. And that is kind of my journey to there and then niching down to memberships realizing that there's there's so much more room in that space of talking about memberships in a whole different way that have not been talked about. By not many people it's and so there's a lot of room there to really address this as a new way of doing business and serving people. Yeah, so that's,
yeah, and even before we started recording we were talking about there's a lot of men in the membership space as being experts and teaching how to Do it strategies around it, there's not a whole lot of women. So you're going to be that girl, right?
I'm going to be that girl. Because I really feel like there's deeper ways of looking at why we do things. And a lot of women like you and I are also talking about how important it is for us to get our clients across the finish line and how we don't want we're not we are focused, you know, on sales to an extent, but not sales at all costs, like I want sales and people getting results. And that's, you know, almost in a way why I've been has like slow to go into one too many models, because I kind of like knowing that I can actually see this person change that gives me a lot of and see new new vision and new possibilities, that gives me a lot of reward. And so I think that's part of where we can bring a different value set to our clients who have those value sets who we're like, I can't just try to sell as much as I can, it's really hard to teach someone a big marketing or aggressive strategy, when they don't have the values or the interests and following it, then they're there, it's going to be hard for them to adopt any of it. So let's bring some new, more realistic ways of doing things out to the world.
Right. Right. So your whole business is called Scaling deep, and it's around scaling deep. And so to you, when you named all of that, what what was the thought process behind scaling and then scaling deep? Like what does that mean to you?
Well, what that means to me is that humans were designed to evolve, like, we are not status quo, like we get one goal, we're on to the next and yes, that could be, you know, provide some challenges to us. Never been satisfied. But you know, let's face it, we compare we there's always somebody with more. And and that's a survival instinct. So we're always going to want to grow. And I think growth is good, and I love it. But I don't think that we should be obsessed with growth for all material reasons or like, because we feel we have to like we need to do it our way. And so I just want to acknowledge that we are designed for this. But we are also designed to figure out how to find more satisfaction, because we're not in a lot of us. Or at least if you're listening to this, you're probably not in a survival situation, you're probably have room to explore and choose. And so how do we do it mindfully so that we're actually happy? Instead of just thinking we want what everyone else wants? So let's put some thought into it.
Yeah, and I love that. Because to me, it's like, if I'm not growing, or if we're not doing is trying to scale something, or gathering data points along the way to see how we can make something better. It's like, why are we doing it in the first place? Yeah. Like, I mean, my old mentality before I worked with this one consultant, was, I mean, we had so many different products and funnels, and we were like, half ass doing 10 different things. And then I met a group of people that I was in a mastermind with, and they're like, no, no, you have it all wrong. Like you focus on one thing, one thing, only talk about that one thing, and then go really deep with it, scale that. And like, that's really what you become known for. Yeah. And, and I thought they relate. See, I'm like, oh, like, what? And then I was like, Oh, I'm the stupid one. I really need to pay attention to what they're doing. But I didn't know how much like, went in, like, behind the scenes. I mean, we were even talking before we were recording and so many details, go on behind the scenes of like trying to make sure that you're creating that value for for your, for your people and for your community. And so for you, how did you land on membership? Like, I'm going to have this this membership? And, you know, yes, like you said, it comes with revenue, we all have to make money. Money is a tool. You all have to have money and make a living at it. And when you focus and you're doing what you love, which is the optimal happiness, as a lot of people would say, yeah, what, what really drove you to say, Okay, I'm going to focus on membership.
Okay, and I love that question. I'm going to be as honest as I can with the answers. So, the first reason why I got in why I sort of discovered this is because I needed to niche down and I knew that everything I did needed to be more niched because you've got to have a large audience. For however you you, you get it to be broad And like live the life you want. You know, like, imagine that brand messaging was somebody super famous. And imagine that brand messaging was just like 100,000 other people. So it's not that that was my messaging. But it was still even as a business strategist, I always knew that like, I needed to be like, something something strategist. Yep. And I've been looking for that for years. But of course, meaning very truth based and unlike honest, you know, to a fault. I knew I had to come by it for real. And I had to love it. And I had to find it's, like, interesting, and then I could talk about it forever. So I purposely had been on the radar, like all that been on the radar, and then my biz bestie, who we've walked her back and forth, like all day, long, most days. She was like, why don't you become a launch strategist? And she was kind of like, pushing me and pushing me. And I'm like, oh, like the thought of that was like, no, like, just none of that appealed to me. But in her kind of bugging me, well, why not? Well, why not? You can hire people. I'm like, I just don't understand. Like, that's not the thing that I want to stand for. And somehow in that conversation, I thought of memberships. And when the thought of that came up, I was like, Oh, I have clients with memberships. Like, I've already helped people improve their memberships. And it's like, I love business models. So my absolute favorite thing to do, which I've been doing for years is I work with like, on VIP business design days, where we help design their business model. Like it's like, what is that unique value that you bring? What is that sparkly thing that you excites you? And what is the offer? Like what and what's the transformation against for people, and that was like, my number one thing to do. And it's like, I want to sit down with anyone, and I want to figure that out. So that was like, Oh, I still get to play in that space. But it's specific. So that is how, and then I kind of fell in love with it more as it sort of sat. So I didn't rush off and change on my brand messaging, I put out an article, you know, a lot of people were like, Oh, that's so awesome. I've been thinking about this, and this and that. And I got a client out of it. So I got a lot of validation from the get go. And then I looked around, I thought that there's no women in this space, like really like leading it, like leading it as much. And there's a lot of women leading amazing membership communities. So I just thought this is just perfect. So and I'm just at that phase in my business where I'm like, when I know there's a good idea, it's a good idea. So I just decided I'm going to go for it. And then the whole I don't know, year of 2020. And all the enough is enough kind of you know, that came out of it from so many levels started really pointing out to me some of the things that were bothering me about online business speak, and I was feeling more vocal about it, like, you know, like, why are we buying these like medium priced programs with 1000s of people in them and not getting results and being like, but the video is clear, you know, when you can't get any support. And realizing that a community or a month to month membership, even though I don't recommend starting off necessarily month to month. For some people, you can have a bit of a minimum, it just allows people to then make more ethical decisions. Like they can say like, this isn't for me, and they've paid their month or two or three. And they can leave without having them be at fault for making a purchase for something that they decide that then they can't do or that wasn't quite their style, or they didn't resonate. So I just felt like maybe this is a new way of delivering not only is it practical, because the whole world is turning to subscriptions for everything. It was also a little bit more ethical, it to me and with all with the kind of idea of belonging and stuff. So all that started to like, make it my why? Like I just started to see like, wow, like this isn't just a great model. For practical reasons, recurring revenue and all the things it's also like, really generous. In a way. I just felt like this is the dream business model for people who really care. So I was like, I'm in.
Yeah, so I know that. Yeah. Memberships. Like for those of us who've been in the whole sales funnel world and mapping the digital customer journey for a long time, like they've been around for a while. Yeah. And then they kind of dipped off a little bit. And then
because it was this big rush to passive income for a while. And that's that's why I think they dipped off because I think they're being sold a little bit as this miracle cure.
Yeah to revenue. And then I noticed like, tech companies and software companies, and they're really large companies. I mean, there's apps that I've used for years and even software that I've used for years and then about I would say right before the pandemic, they're like, Okay, we're going to even Adobe, like in edit, editing video and stuff. It's like you used to could just buy the license, right? Yeah. And Microsoft, everything, you just you go buy the box, and you put the CD in, and then you own it. And it don't work like that anymore. And so now is like, a reoccurring and if you pay for the year, you get a better deal or whatever. Yeah. And most of these tools, like we know, we need them, we know we have to have them in order to service our clients. So of course, I'm just gonna pay the annual membership. But it's like when I saw technology really moving and apps and software's moving into that, I could tell, okay, this is really going to come back like this is just going to be normalized and heard. And so do you think because of other industries starting to do that, that really set the tone for what a small business owner come in and do as far as memberships go?
I think it's helped us think about access, right? And the access we want in the way we want it, because there's also it's kind of like the whole tiny digital product thing, like there's tons of them, but doesn't mean they're not a good idea. Because it's still, you're still setting up a level of like, this isn't free. Like, I mean, I was saying the other day, like I have a Spotify membership that I sometimes don't think I use for a whole month, like I don't listen to tons of music. And there's other people in my household who have who have memberships that their membership and they play it and so I'm but it doesn't mean that I wouldn't, I would just cancel it for not having access. Or you might learn something from a group, but then you love the group. And it's really worth it to you to do that, because you're going to be buying something that's going to replace that need. So I think we got used to it. And we have so much pressure to to learn and grow and improve everything. And so when it comes to business to business, or even business to consumer, like why not just have a quality control, sort of filter of where we can get access when we need it, versus having just everything free, because there's so much free out there and we're kind of wanting to discern a little bit. And and I think also just did you get a bit of all in one with some memberships. I mean, you get, like, Oh, I got community or I've got a course I can dip into and I need it or, and or mentorship or whatever. So I think we got Yeah, we've we've been, it's been how we pay we're comfortable with and then also the differentiation between free and like the the freemium and paid for.
I love that freemium. And it's not like everything is is expensive, right? So there's even membership groups where it's $1 a month, it's $5 a month, it's $2 month, nothing has to be expensive, but it's like the value. And then like you said, access, that is the key word of what access? Are you going to get to that person's membership. So what are some of the obstacles that when if someone listening or watching is brand new, and they're like, this sounds like a really good idea? It's, it is some work, like the fact that someone started to say like, oh, you built this membership and the whole passive income thing? Yeah. Which it is, it can be that. But there still has to be a strategy, and there still has to be specific content that you're putting out to help your members and again, bring that value. So what are some obstacles that you've seen, like in your business and with your clients that that you really had to overcome?
Well, okay, so it depends on your goals. So for some people, it's not going to make sense. If you really love selling higher ticket programs, or you're not trying to grow volume, it's not to say you have to have a huge volume, I think you just have a higher price membership, right? So I love the idea of a 250 $300 a month group as a not It's not at super high, but it's not like you might be trading off something in the short term for the fact that somebody might be there for five years. So that $2,000 sale, you know, person who might have gone through something and then how to free access to an alumni community forever, is now like paying $300 a month and what if they're there for five years, right? So that's golden, right? And, and so I think the obstacles that people are saying it's like, well, it's not going to be worth it at a price point and that is something to consider if you've got to small market then. Or if you have other higher level services, and I wouldn't just throw up a cheap membership, because I think the obstacles that like you, then you got to keep raising the price. And then you've got to get people I've got like not to the ones in it, but to the new ones. So mentally, you've got to get your head around, the people got the head around this idea of like, Oh, I thought it would just be like this other one, that's $67. And you want to charge me 147. So I think that's part of it, and obviously, being niched enough that. So other two things, you either have an audience already that you can bring into it, you're like they're just hanging out. And I really want them to come into something. And I know I have other things to sell them. So one of the solutions is like, where do you want their membership to sit in your business model? Is it your warmup program to work selling other things? So that's like, Life Coach School model, right? They have the $300 Month SELF scholars club or something, and then people become life coaches from there. That's, that's totally that funnel, it could be a flagship model, which I think might be Rachael Rogers, I'm not quite sure. But she definitely has like the big one program, I think, more than anything now. And yes, there's some other things that people might buy at a higher level from that. But that's a pretty like, you know, that's a huge membership. And then there's that follow up, you know, for me, I started mine with my first one with that, it was like, I've got all these clients, I'm doing these amazing, like VIP days with and then they don't really have anything for them. And I didn't really want to, you know, make them all handhold, higher, higher amount, coaching to implement when they just needed to check in and get validation and stick to the plan. So then I created like a follow up, call only membership, we just do three calls a month with them. Super simple, no content, just show up and get your calls answered. Your questions answered. So, so one of the obstacles is this idea that you have to have everything there. You don't have to have all the things. So you got to figure out what is the number one goal that they need to get out of this overtime? And how do you do it and do not give them everything from the get go, if they don't need it, add it if it grows, and they need that extra thing, but people throw in everything at a really cheap price, and then think they're going to get tons of people in it. And then they don't get tons of people in it. And then they got an unsustainable program.
And if you vomit so much emigration out to people, like like you're seeing earlier, they get overwhelmed. And then they do nothing. And then they quit because they feel shitty about it. Yes, totally. So and I know like, and I even have this this problem with myself sometimes like the one of the last webinars we did was specifically on Tom blocking that one thing, and the girl that was like building my deck, and I went through it, and I'm like, this is really basic to me, you know, and she's like,
I teach so many people time blocking to you. And I'm like, I don't know how they've survived this long.
either. I'm like, This is so basic and boring. She's like, but you have to realize, you, you teach this you're an x. And the way that you do this stuff in your sleep, this isn't normal. People don't operate like this normal basis. And so you, you have to this is a free webinar, you have to keep it basic. Otherwise, people are going to feel as though you're talking over their head, or you're sharing something that they're never going to be able to achieve, which means they're never going to buy anything from you because they don't feel like you understand them. And so I thought about that I'm like, you know, that's a really great point. Because when we are experts, or we do something a lot, you know, for businesses and for other people, we forget our day to day knowledge that oh, this is just what we do every day. Totally to other people. So it's like dripping things and being a little bit more basic and digestible. Yeah been a it's a difficult thing because you always want to I don't know about you, but I always want to make people feel like they're getting a ton of value.
Yeah, but less is more and I've gotten so so strict with that with my client like I and you know, even recently I have a client who just discovered she has ADHD and she's like, got so overwhelmed in the past getting through things and she did buy it you know, has bought quite a few things and but knowing that now has helped her realize that she needs a single focus like on one thing and despite the fact she can see all these ideas, the ideas are not getting her to any level of following through on something even if she follows through on something and it doesn't quite turn out the way she wants, like selling something to the list. I'm like getting her to Sell her current private offer to her list. So she can start to experience that follow through of, of that rather than, Oh, I need to create more events. I'm like, No, you didn't sell from the last event. So we're gonna work on selling to this list before you go out and follow this other gurus program and create more events when you're not comfortable with selling. So I think, you know, we have to ensure that there's a sustainable way for people to get a result. And membership allows people to some people get results in three months and others in a year. And I think that that's, that means people were where they're at, huh, it's great. It's a really fun model. I like the idea that it feels very, like if you've got a great niche and a great service mentality. And, and it doesn't mean so unsustainable. Like, if a group got crazy, busy, and you were getting tagged in it constantly, or even before you got tagged, I would suggest having office hours, it's like online office hours, like just get your questions answered, during this time, I'll be online for two hours every week, this time, or something like that. Like I think, you know, if you have 20 people in the group, and you're charging $500, you might, you know, have more than that. But if you're not, then I would say make sure that people get what they need. But don't feel like you have to desperately respond to everything. And allow the community to do so. So there's all kinds of ways but the the model is unique enough that it's worth designing it properly. It's not a formula, you have to figure out your features, your unique think priorities, the unique goals of your ideal member. And that's how you design it. And it's not a piecing together, things you've seen in other programs is actually thinking it through. And that's the offer and that can be sustainable.
And what's interesting is, you know, because we've done so many courses, and we've done so many different things online, like for memberships and digital stuff. And what I've learned just over the years is something key that you said that, just not that you have to have all the content done. It's just showing up and like having those office hours and then having people know that you're going to be there, there's been a couple groups that I was part of where you had to submit your question, like 48 hours in advance, and then, you know, through their web form, and then they would get on and they record everything. And then after you know, so if you can't show up? Or if you have a question, but you don't submit it on time, you can always go back and watch the recording. So is that something that you prefer? Or you teach your clients to do to I call it potty train your brain to be fun, but it's like, do you want to potty train people to where they need to ask their question beforehand? Or do you think it works better? And I know everybody has to figure out, you know, what's going to work for them? But is it better for people to submit in advance or just show up and ask the questions?
I think it depends on the group size. And really, and I think that that's a great tool for a group that if you are really needing to be organized and prepared, or if that's kind of part of how you do training. It's like what are you what is going on with you right now? Like any, you know, and then you can sort of suss out what are the themes that are coming up. So I think that works for a medium sized, whatever that may be group. And that because I think adding that structure when you don't know every member and then because there's a point where you're you could you know, most people start with founding members and they know what they know, most of they know a lot of the people, their former clients. So I think that you can be casual for a while until you can't. So that's all I'm saying is like, I mean, I love showing up impromptu I do my best thinking when I'm in front of people on the spot. I just as part of how I operate. And I like it. There are people that like I would much rather have zoom calls at live than I would have people tagging me in a conversation constantly. Like I don't want to do typing typing responses as much. So I would probably train my memberships to be more like what I prefer knowing that there's you got to show up. If you want to make money in your business. You got to show up right at some whether you got a big team and you're managing the team or you're managing your clients you're doing something so rather than thinking everything is passive, let's get step one, which is like good recurring revenue every month, profitable member revenue and then find out when you want to show up and how you want to show up because I think We're all different. I know some people really get drained out of live calls, and I would do them hands down over Type, Type Type Type Type Type.
Me too. I would rather do video answers all day. Right? And yeah, and, and going back to like doing you know what you prefer as a person like I'm not a good reader, I don't retain when I when I read I do understand. And so I'd rather just make a video with an answer and then make sure that like, they really understand. Because sometimes like sarcasm can be taken the wrong way Exactly. Like I'm not trying to be a bitch, like, I'm just telling you how it is. And it comes across differently when you hear someone's voice or you can see their face and the expression on their face. And so I'm with you all day long. And then
finding people who start who like what you have, and not everyone's gonna like everyone. And that's why there's lots of people to choose from, and vice versa. So I think you just have to stay in your integrity, you got to resist the firehose, because that's going to not be great for anyone and be like, here's the value, know, your value prop, right? Like, know, the goal, the transformation that you're trying to get for people, whatever that is figure that out. And that has probably a lot to do with your own zone of genius and how you show it best. And that's what you have to consistently deliver. And, you know, like I said, I had these office hours type membership that I started in January, and like six months later, everyone's still showing up for all the calls. So it's like, I thought, well, is this gonna sustain itself? It's like, everyone's still showing up for the calls. I'm like, okay, so I can't be that simple. Like, we have a little mighty network. But I, a week goes by sometimes. And I haven't posted and they haven't posted and I know, and I don't think that's a problem. Because I know it's not a problem. Mm hmm. So I think that's part of it, you have to be confident in your value.
Yeah. So if anybody is listening, or watching and they want to start a membership, what are some things that you would tell them to do?
Well, I would get clear on what kind of revenue you want to earn from it. Like where do you want this to sit in your business model? So is this something that you're like really committed to for the long term? Or are you thinking that it might lead to other things, so you've got to know your offers and where it sits within those. Because again, layering, you know, we said, like, have one thing, don't keep layering offer after offer after offer. So understand that that's really what you want. And then figure out kind of your strengths and how to show up and figure out and do the design, like figuring out the design of it. I mean, I have a, I have a free training, that gives some of the ways that you can plan out your design in it on my website, so you can check that out. But it's really like, I think the problem is the biggest problem I've seen Agile is that people do not design their program, it's like they throw up the membership, they will you'll design a course or you'll design like it's small digital thing. But it's people don't design the membership. And it's like that actually can be a very out of control probably very easily if you don't think it through. So I would say start with designing.
Yeah, and we'll put that link in the show notes too. So scaling deep.com/design Yeah, so we'll put it in the show notes. So you're listening or your evening thinking are tempting. You know, like, Okay, I think I want to do this type thing, be sure to go through that and make sure that you have it laid out because even I've learned because I used to. I like to be like cutesy with things. And I was working with a consultant, they're like, cute, don't sell, like, be clear, clear, converts and cute does not convert. Yeah. And I'm like, Oh my God, you are so right. And so sometimes what we think is gonna work with it doesn't and so if you just ask your audience, how can you help them? And what do they want and delivering what they want not what you want to do is two different things, I think can completely be a game changer, you know, from a revenue perspective, depending on where it fits into your business model. So this, this is awesome.
And not being afraid to lead like I think you need to lead in a membership as well. So you are you want to have a vision, really for it for it, I think for them and for where you think you can take them because I think that's where a lot of people are buying outcomes that they don't necessarily need a membership can allow them to maybe figure that out along the way. And what's important to priority to them and then they'll really appreciate for that and that so I you know, you know what are we interesting? What I'd really like to do is when I when my As this really grows in this area, I'd love to do more research on this and actually start doing some, like industry research on like, how do people learn differently? And what are the stats around that? And what are the experiences compared to other things? Like I think there's like, it's like, it's a way of learning. It's like learning design. You know, it'd be fascinating to know a little bit more about what's actually happening behind the scenes. You know, if we had got some survey data and stuff, it'd be so fun. So I mean, really cool. That's,
that's awesome. Coming soon. Yeah.
Maybe a year or so. But we'll see.
That's awesome. Well, if people want to connect with you, obviously, they can go to scaling deep calm, and then be sure to go to scaling. dt.com/design. But do you have a favorite platform that you hang out on if you want people to connect with you there?
Yeah, either. Instagram or LinkedIn. I'm probably a little more active on Instagram. But I mean, I can get a DM on either of them very easily. So yeah, either of those.
That's awesome. Thank you so much for being here today. This was so helpful.
Yeah. You're so welcome. Thanks for having me. Awesome. And
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