As an entrepreneur, it's important to understand what your customer wants. After all, you're in business to serve them! But sometimes it can be challenging especially when they don’t always know what they need.
There are some simple changes you can make to your messaging/branding/strategy that can have a big impact. Communicating with the brain's natural rules of decision making is a game changer when it comes to knowing your customer.
I’m so excited to share today’s guest, Melina Palmer, CEO of The Brainy Business who will be sharing with us all about how to know what your customer wants.
What is behavioral economics
The top 5 wording mistakes businesses make
Why behavioral economics should matter to businesses and individuals
The brain doesn't work the way you think it should (99% of decisions made by the subconscious)
Communicating with the brain's natural rules of decision making increases conversions and makes it easier for people to buy from you.
There are some simple changes to your messaging/branding/strategy you can make that don't have to cause a lot of money, but can have a big impact.
MORE ABOUT OUR GUEST
Melina Palmer is founder and CEO of The Brainy Business, which provides behavioral economics consulting to businesses of all sizes from around the world. Her podcast, The Brainy Business: Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy, has downloads in over 160 countries and is used as a resource for teaching applied behavioral economics for many universities and businesses. Melina obtained her bachelor’s degree in business administration: marketing and worked in corporate marketing and brand strategy for over a decade before earning her master’s in behavioral economics. A proud member of the Global Association of Applied Behavioral Scientists, Melina has contributed research to the Association for Consumer Research, Filene Research Institute, and runs the Behavioral Economics & Business column for Inc Magazine. She teaches applied behavioral economics through the Texas A&M Human Behavior Lab and her first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You, published in May 2021.
Welcome to Business unveiled podcast. This is the place where we help overwhelmed, time starved entrepreneurs like you make the profitable shifts to get more done and get more out of life. I'm your host, Angela Proffitt, award winning eight figure entrepreneur and CEO. And in every episode of business unveiled, I'm bringing you conversations that will give you the expertise and strategies that will scale your team and business so you can get shit done. That's GST in our world. So get your time back and grow a business that helps you be present in your life. Let's do this, y'all. Angela, I'm back for another episode of business unveiled. And I'm so excited to talk with our guests today. Because what we're gonna talk about is something that as business owners and entrepreneurs, we literally deal with this every single day on someone asking for something, and a that they probably do need. But there's usually five other things or 15 other things that have to come before that, before we actually give them what they actually want. And so we're gonna talk about what does your customer want? And you can't tell them sometimes. So I'm really excited to dive in today. So Melina, welcome to the show today.Continue Reading
Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
I'm super excited. Before we jump in and talk about behavioral economy and all of the fun stuff that you're an expert in, can you take us back to where your journey started? I think it's really important for people to know that you just didn't like roll out of bed one day and say, I'm gonna start a business. And this is where I'm at. But take us on the the short journey of how have you gotten to where you are today? To really do the brainy business that you do. Yeah.
So when I was in my undergrad, I got my degree in marketing. So business administration with focus in marketing. And I remember there was just like this one section of one book, and one class that had just this little tiny, tiny thing about buying psychology and why people do the things they do. And I was amazed and thought it was just the greatest thing I've ever seen or heard ever, and had told myself, then, you know, someday I'm going to go back, I'm going to get a master's in this, like, nothing to get it against MBAs, but like, that's not for me, I want this, you know, I was super jazzed. And I basically spent 10 years calling universities around the country and having them all say, not a thing that doesn't exist. It's Sorry, we don't have that, you know, but if you want you can create your own program to which is like, well, I know what I need to learn, I don't need to pay you $200,000 or whatever it is to go do that. So. So Nevermind, I don't you know, and I was working, you know, running a marketing department for a financial institution and doing any other programs I could I was in this innovation, kind of like a fellowship. Where's this like two year program that you're committed to we got to do research and speak at Harvard and really cool places. And while I was in that program, they would bring in different speakers and things. And some at one point, they were from the Center for Advanced hindsight, which is the behavioral economics team at Duke University. And they were talking about their research. And I just had this Oh, like, this is what I've been looking for for such a long time. And I was so excited and basically, cornered them and made them talk to me probably far longer than they wanted to tell me all about what they did. And they said it was called behavioral economics. And I said, okay, and I found myself a master's program. And it happened to line up with when I was leaving a corporate career anyway, because we were moving. And I found that things that were so clear to me about how this applies to brand strategy and communication and marketing and internal work with teams and pricing for businesses and all this just wasn't really anywhere the field was still very academic in what it had available, and so had that. Well, why not me and I have a found through this process. I have a knack for making a field that could be very boring for some and weighty and you can't really get the, like, what do I do with it, you know, making it translatable for everybody to be able to know what it is why it matters how you go do something. So I ended up launching my podcast and shifting my whole business. And here we are.
That's amazing. I'm like you like I'm fascinated, like, I want to know, why do people click on a blue button that with rounded edges, then a green button that you're that square? All these different things like growth hacking, and the behavior of how people just respond online to various products is so interesting. Because before I started using all these tools, like Hotjar, and CrazyEgg, and really understanding like the behavior, like what I thought, and then what was actually happening was two very different things. And the data and the number doesn't lie. And so like, oh, what I think is not working. And it's like there is this huge disconnect. And so I know like, the brain doesn't work the way that it should. And we all have different personalities, and our brains are all wired very differently. And then we also have our experiences and our environments that also influence and make up behaviors and decisions. And so where are 99% of the decisions made?
So yeah, actually, all our brains are very similar in a lot of ways. While we do have, like you're saying personalities and backgrounds in like nature versus nurture, World of my personal experiences being somewhat different than yours. And that can influence a lot of decision making. Really, our brains have evolved over hundreds of 1000s of years to get to where they are today. And many of these rules that are used by the brain. So 99% of decisions are made really by our subconscious, we like to think that we're logical, conscious creatures, using our supercomputers intentionally for everything that we are doing inside of our heads. But we can't actually function in that way, our brains would use up too much energy, and we would actually die. So you can't use more than what is already happening in that process. And so your brain uses the subconscious, like a filter, I'll talk about it like a receptionist when you're trying to get a meeting with a busy executive that says like, I know how to do this, I know how to do this, you don't need to bother them for that, that, that, that that. But every so often, there's something they say, Hey, you know, conscious Europe go do something. And so those rules would be, you know, when we're uncertain who've never bought a product before, we are a hurting species. And so we will look to see what other people like us have done before to help us make a decision, which is why testimonials and star ratings and number of followers on Twitter, and and and you know, all these things influence our decisions. Because we look for that social proof to help us to herd and make a good decision. We're also more likely to be loss averse than looking for gains. And FOMO is a real thing. And you know, loss aversion is a reason that that comes into play. And so those concepts of so what the subconscious is using to make those 99% of decisions is what behavioral economists and behavioral scientists are looking, you know, sort of helping to apply and say, here's some of what's happening. And here's how you can understand and use that to communicate with with other people better. That's what I do with in my business.
It's so awesome. It's so interesting. Like, all of it is so interesting. And so in terms of so I'm not a rule follower at all. Are you a rule follower? When it comes to rules, yeah. And it's just so funny to me, because, you know, I like the speed limit is a rule to me, right? So it's like some of us probably break the speed speed limit. And then some of us pay attention to the signs and we and they follow the speed limit. And even on this past Sunday, me and my mom were leaving the exact same place that I'm like, I'm going to go by pick up some food, and which was probably, I don't know, five, seven minutes, the other way and then You know, I had to go in, I had to wait in line I had to pay, get the food, put it in my car, so it didn't topple over, get in the car, but we were going back to the same place. And she was at a stop sunlight pulled out in front of me. I'm like, How did I catch up with? Like, do you really drive that slow? Like, why are you so slow? And she's like, you drive so fast, and you're never aware of the speed limit? And I'm like, You're right. But like, no one's dead. Like, we don't have to have this conversation. But it's like, she's such a rule follower. And she'll ask for permission, before just doing something. And then someone approaching her and saying, oh, no, no, you shouldn't do that, or you can't do that. And it's just, it's funny even be with some of my team members at various events or productions that we're doing. And I'll just park wherever I'll go to the loading dock. And then I have team members that are like, Well, did you make an appointment for the loading dock? And did you do this? And did you do that? And I'm like, No, but my brains not even thinking about that. Like, what I'm thinking about is, what does everything look like up there, and I can't wait to get up there and see if the pictures actually look like the place that we're shooting in. And so it's just crazy, where our brains are all over the place. Like you never know, you could be looking at the same thing going to the same place. And we're all thinking something totally different. So is that more like defined in the like behavioral economics? Like, oh, that's left brain, right brain would you say,
um, so in the space of behavioral economics, we look, it's more about, and especially how I approach in looking at this is how our brains are all similar, and how people can use that in messaging and communication and such. And so, it is, though important to note, that if you have a customer base, that, you know, there are some common traits that you could say, are pretty consistent for entrepreneurs, right? That's different than people who like to be assembling things with their hands and you know, doing routine items every day and versus an engineer or, you know, whatever, there's, there are some things that are important to note when you're thinking about how to message to people, but then understanding these things that we're able to message upon, like we're heavily influenced by, by numbers, or whatever that is. And so if you know, you have a bunch of, you know, many entrepreneurs are in the squirrel worlds, right, we get excited about shiny objects, kind of like you're talking about here. And so because you're trying to do so many things at once, it's also very common, you're going to have a lot of overwhelm. And you'll maybe be distracted by something really good at maybe starting projects or having an idea. But Completion can be an issue, and having mental blocks about delegating or bringing on team members. And so understanding that place and what those commonalities are amongst your group of customers that you're looking to market to, can then help to see which of these levers you want to pull and know that there's no silver bullet of, you know, 100% of the time, you are always going to be able to do this. And it will work just like this. And it's perfect. Because the brain is really complex, and we're finding out new stuff all the time. But where you can find some of those similarities, and then start testing your messaging can be very helpful and impactful for sure.
Yeah, so when it comes to conversions, and especially like online conversions, and people buying, from anybody that's listening, or watching, if you have an online product, or if you sell something online, even if your products are on Amazon, or they're on a third party. We have some products on third party sites, and they have some of them have their own set of rules. But typically, when you are uploading, like a product description, or a video or the images or whatnot, I know that there are statistics that say if you have a video with your product, it's more likely 70% more likely for people to purchase. The fifth time they see it rather than the seventh or eighth. I can't remember exactly what the statistics were. It was a study a long time ago, but what are your thoughts on that? Like, what are some things anybody that's listening that has online products like, how can we make it easier for people to buy, because having a conversation like this one on one, or speaking and meeting people in person, or even virtually, that's a different experience that someone has with you and the information and the knowledge that you are helping them with. But when it comes to a completely cold person landing on your website or landing on your Instagram shop, it's a little different. And the conversion is so different from someone actually interacting with you personally, versus not interacting with you personally. So what are some things that we can do to make as business owners and entrepreneurs to make it easier for people to spend money with us?
Yeah, well, going to the video piece, the big reason that that works, is through something called mirror neurons. And so if, like, where you can actually see me right now and say, If I had picked something up a sheet of paper and went, ooh, like, I got a paper cut, you've seen someone get a paper cut. And it's just this cringe of a moment, right? It's excruciating to see someone else get a paper cut. Now, the question would be why? Why do I feel it when you get a paper cut? Or if you're about to kind of trip on a stage or something? And I feel like I'm kind of falling for a moment, why does that even happen? And it's because of these mirror neurons. So our brains are set up in a way to where I can see what you are doing. And my brain essentially experiences it as if it was happening to me in that moment, which is also why we learn by observation. So if you, if a child watches someone open a jar, then they can potentially learn and do it themselves, without being told what to do. Which is really remarkable. And that's not something that every species can do. So those mirror neurons, make it to where we experience with someone else. And it feels like we've done it before, which makes it easier when it comes time to do that ourselves. So when you've all seen the videos of like, click here, click here, and it's like the arrow clicking the subscribe, or the bell or whatever. You think that's stupid. Why do I have to keep seeing that we all know that we should subscribe if we like it. Don't tell me. Logically, that's what your brain says. But your subconscious every time it's going and clicking are the ones where it's like you're playing a game and it looks like a, like a finger that's clicking on download or a hand or something. And you think it's really weird, but it's actually making it so your brain is essentially like, I clicked download that. I'm gonna click subscribe. I like clicking subscribe, clicking subscribe, it's so easy, and then becomes easier to go do it yourself. So along those same lines, when you are showing in a video, if you have maybe you're selling like really soft blankets or something, and it's you know, here's how, like, you open the packaging. Why are unboxing videos, so such a thing? It's the weirdest thing. And it's because this so and then like, ooh, it's so soft, or you think about watching the Food Network, and they take the bite, and they're explaining what that experience is. And you think, yeah, I want to make that that sounds delicious. This is all helping our brain to experience in the moment feel like we've done it before, which makes it easier to buy when it comes time to do so.
So basically, be more descriptive in what the person could be feeling or experiencing like, what whatever product, right?
Yes. And so I have a chapter in my book on this concept of priming, which goes specifically into detail about all five of our senses, and how each one kind of what's happening in the brain and why that makes a difference. But if you were to go and do a search, you're gonna you want to buy a leather couch, let's say and so you go to Amazon or Wayfair or whatever. And you look and it says, material, leather. Okay. Okay, it's leather good enough. If it instead says like buttery, soft chocolate brown leather can go Ooh, that sounds nice. So those priming words used in the right space, this buttery soft, I know what that means. It's getting some you know, touch without touch. That chocolate brown. We like the idea of that deep rich chocolate vibe that comes in which actually does get some of that taste value brought In, you can almost see how soft the leather is. Now based on that description, you can smell, you know, a leather, if that's something. So those couple of extra words in the right spot can make something sound way more appealing, then, if you were to just again, material leather color, brown doesn't have the same judge that you get, when you have those more descriptive terms. I teach applied behavioral economics at Texas a&m university through the human behavior lab there and have done, the team has done a lot of work in menu optimization for wineries and for barbecue places and whatever else. And in that process, having, you know, for the barbecue location, and they wanted to sell more Turkey, because it's more profitable for them. But then saying, you know, people just don't buy Turkey, they want brisket, but briskets really expensive for us, and we don't have a very good profit margin. So shifting to where Turkey comes first, and instead of just saying, you know, we have turkey, but you call it like, slow roasted oven, baked turkey breast or whatever, you know, you're able to put in this like, juicy, slow roasted those words that make you really love it. And just with these tweaks to the menu, you know, Turkey sales went up 400%. And the sausage sales were up, over 50%. And that was even during COVID of being able to have that over the brisket. So profitability up, people find out that they really like the turkey and they can add this on. So they're happy. They didn't realize that they wanted it or that they were kind of being swayed away from it. And it's good for the business good for the customer. Just good all the way around.
So that makes me hungry. And no, sorry. I think I think for food like it definitely. I could see where I mean with food 100%. And then like you said like with furniture like saying the word like plush and buttery. When it comes to like service based businesses for either like online courses or books, which mean we get this question a lot like, how do you butter up an online course like it is what it is? And like, it's just like, someone would describe a book and how it makes them feel and what the emotions are and what did what what did you walk away with? And, and chapters in a book or someone like, somewhat like modules in a course. But for people like attorneys or accountants or, you know, service based industries like that, do you have any thoughts on how they can use words that would make someone purchase from a service based company rather than like furniture or food? Or is that you're really scared about
that too. But but you know, one example I have a lot of clients that struggle with especially so there's this, I want people to know that it's expensive, or they'll say the biggest problem, you get someone on the phone, and they're just rate shopping, and they really just want you to tell you them a price. And then you do and then you don't hear from them again, it's a waste of time. That whole deal, right? Yep. So there are some things that you can be putting into your language that can help to say, essentially, to that brain, like, this is expensive, without saying, Hey, we're expensive. So don't call unless you have money, because that's not really what you want to be saying either. But just even using a simple word like investment, that this is an investment in yourself and investment in your business. The word investment triggers something a little bit differently in the brain than if you're talking about how it's such a value or, you know, budget conscious, something along those lines. So being very aware of the words that you're going to be using as well as imagery. So even if you are in a service based space, and we like to think these things shouldn't matter, but imagery that you choose is very impactful on the brain and how it Prime's future engagements and whether someone's ready to buy from you or not. One of my favorite examples is so if you are in a looking to help people be more cooperative, like you want them to cooperate and work with you in this process, but you also want to look like you're you know what you're talking about in your in you know, smart in your business and whatnot. If you put someone in a businesslike in the boardroom with a briefcase out, you will have a different mental engagement that's going to be coming across for somebody. So the particular study that was done was looking at having people work together on a project, cooperating on something. Half the people were put into a room where there was a briefcase in sight, the other half where there was a backpack in sight. Everybody, no one actually saw it. And they couldn't recall that it had been in the room. But those in the backpack room were more cooperative than those in the briefcase room who were more likely to kind of be, you know, combating each other because of this association, our brains are very literal with the associations they make. And so when you think about briefcases, we think about fighting it out in the boardroom, Wall Street greedy type associations, and backpacks remind us of when we were in school, and we worked on group projects a lot, and you have this different experience. And so you could inadvertently, in trying to look professional, put someone with a briefcase, and it can make it so people are going to be more stingy, maybe with spending money. And you didn't even realize that you were priming them that way, based on that association that's being made in the brain.
That is so interesting. I remember seeing a video on YouTube, where it was a long time ago, a guy was riding in a bus, and he had just got taken to a town. And it was for a marketing project that he was pitching. And they had, the company had planted all these little things along the way as he's like riding in the bus. And no one talked to him, no one pointed it out or anything. And when he got to the boardroom, they didn't give a lot of description of like, what they wanted him to do to like pitch it. But the way the brain was acting and like taking things in as he was going influenced, like what he came up with, like it was it was so neat to watch. But it really taught me I'm like, Damn, I should look up from my phone. Sometimes if I like writing, and like be aware of my surroundings, or if I'm going into a new city, and we're going to do some type of an event or a design installment like, I should probably look up and pay attention to like, what is going on around me. And it just opened my eyes to how convincing things could be. But those were placed specifically to make this person do something and come up with a marketing campaign, like based on those things. So it is just wild to me how how it works. You know, when we're actually like stopping and paying attention, like to our surroundings, we
have to pay attention to them, for them to be impacting us. That is the real point there too. So you know, people that say I don't pay attention to Facebook ads or commercials don't work on me. You're wrong? Yes, they do. You just didn't, you didn't consciously recognize it. But it is impacting your decision and what you're looking at and why. So just in some of the how the brain works, you know, we talked about 99%. But to put it another way, if you do think about your brain as a computer, you which a lot of people like to make that comparison, your subconscious can do about 11 million bits of information per second. A lot, there's a lot going on, your conscious brain can do about 40 Compared to 11 million is a lot, even if we were to say it was, you know, 40,000 it's still a huge shift between them. And so, though that 11 million bits is deciding, like, I want to go there, I want to do this, I don't like that. That looks interesting. And the subconscious is making decisions based on what has worked before. And these associations that it has to predict what's coming next. And so seeing the imagery and being able to make an interpretation of what that means. And then that's primed for the next choice based on what we just saw, to help build context into kind of what's next. What's next. What's next. And what you were looking at how you got there that all impacts decision making in a different way. And so if there is where people this so again, my book is what your customer wants and can't tell you because the conscious and subconscious don't speak the same language. They don't know what the other one is doing. And so, even though someone thinks they bought this toothpaste because it has baking soda in it, and they would tell you that in a focus group or something, and then you go put baking soda in toothpaste and nobody buys it, or you go ask all your friends, like you would buy this, right, this is a good business idea. And you have that logical conscious conversation. And then, you know, they don't actually buy from you when you launch all these things. It's not that they're intentionally lying to you, usually, but they just really, really don't know. And they, you know, they don't realize that the reason they bought that particular brand of toothpaste is because it was in a shiny silver box, and everything else was red or blue. And it stood out to them. And then they logic their way into explaining why they cared about it. But their subconscious liked it, and wanted it. And that makes a difference. Or, you know, their older sisters best friend use that toothpaste when they were growing up and was super cool. And so it made you want to be cool like them. And that's why it's your preferred brand, even though you can't articulate that. That's why
and people buy what they want, not what they need. So what, what are some things that we can do? Like, I know that there's like simple changes that can be made to like messaging and branding. And when we were doing strategies, or people will say, Well, can't you just film some things? And like, throw up a Facebook ad? Like it doesn't work like that? Oh, my God, no. Like, we have to sit down and put a strategy together. And there has to be an order to the messaging and what are your goals? And what's the customer journey for someone coming off of an ad or clicking off of an ad, like there's so many things that we have to go through strategically to think about it and, and we've had it at least once a week, someone will say, Well, I've talked, I've talked to other people, and they'll do it, I'm like, well, that's great. You go give them your money, and let me know the results in 90 days. But we don't do it like that. And I'll take your money, but we're going to do what we need to do first to make sure that everything is done the way that it should happen. And what you're asking to do, that's that's six months away from right now we have no data we have we have nothing to go off of. And you have no testimonials, a no beta group. I mean, there's just there's so many things. And one of the biggest things that trying to explain to people is like copy and copywriting and there's different types of it. And, and it's like some people, they're like, Well, I just don't want to pay for that. Like I just it's just words, I'm like, but the words are really important. But the images are important. And the video is important too. And the structure of the video and what's edited in the music. There's so many things to think about. But from a simplicity standpoint, what are some simple things, anyone watching or listening, could walk away after listening or watching to this and say, Okay, I need to go back and reassess my message, my brand, and what is my strategy for the customer journey, so that, you know, you don't have to spend a million dollars on it. But again, like, like you said, the word investment, I hate the word budget, but it's so engrained into people's heads when it comes for an event, or especially a wedding. And it's like, we're going to talk about what's important to you and how we're going to allocate those funds versus budget. So in everything is an investment when it comes to branding and messaging, like you're constantly investing, where you should be in your audience. And if you're doing something that you want to do, and it's something that that the audience didn't ask for, it's not going to sell. And I can say that because it's happened to me before. And I'm like, I don't understand, like everyone needs this. And then I hired a consultant, they're like, but Angela, no one asked for it. Just because you think people need it doesn't mean that they're going to buy it. And I'm like, oh my god, I just waste wasted a ton of money, and time and effort. So learning to like poll the audience and ask for things and then find a common thread between what people are saying was a huge eye opener for me personally, when I started doing things online, but what are some like simple things that people can do?
Yeah. So my book is set up to where it's, you know, four parts. We start by just how the brain works, just to give you that good foundation as you go in. Part two is my top 16 concepts. Like I said, there are hundreds of different concepts and things going on all the time in the brain, so 16 a manageable number that I think are most important for businesses to understand and that you can go do something with right now. Part three starts combining some of them together for like pricing strategy and how you're presenting offers and things like that. And then in part four is this don't get stuck talking about some biases within the brain that would make you kind of swirl and be trapped in the not taking an action place for too long. That being said, so of those 16 concepts, I would say there's a reason that the first one comes up first, which is framing. We've already talked about priming and some other things, too. But framing is this how you say something matters much more than what you are saying. And one of my favorite examples of this being, you know, say you're going to the grocery store, it's spaghetti night, you have to just pop in and pick up some ground beef, you get there, and there are two different stacks next to each other. identical except for the label one is listed as 90%, fat free, the ones next to it are labeled as 10%. Fat. Which one do you feel more compelled to buy? And I've asked this, for many groups, you know, 1000s from around the world, and most everybody says 90%, fat free sound totally, yeah, that's what they want. You get 10% Fat going, like, you haven't been to the gym in like, 18 months, where's that gonna go? And 90% fat free. Sounds like, you know, such a great thing I'm doing for myself and my family, whatever. Yeah, it's the same, right? Like, logically, we know it's talking about the exact same thing, but you, it just feels better in the one way because of how it hit your subconscious. And that is the frame in the way that the exact same information is presented, changes, whether you want to buy it, or it makes you feel gross, and you want to leave and go to the gym. So when you think about for your own business, and the framing, I would say for one, look and see, where are you talking in 10% Fat terms that you could just very quickly reframe, and be messaging as a 90% fat, so fat free space.
Even further, where is across your industry, what is the 10% fat that everyone is talking about in your competitors, where you can be the one person that's talking about this as a 90%, fat free offer. And you can really stand out from everyone else, even if you're saying exactly the same thing, because it's going to hit the brain in a slightly different way. And reframing things is something you can just test you can do a BS on, you know, Facebook ads or emails or on your website, or even in the way that you're communicating. When you're having those discovery conversations or sales pitches, think about if you were to say it slightly differently. And then you know, for a month or a week, you depending on how many calls you have and whatever. Say it one way, and see if it makes a difference. And if it does great. And if it doesn't, you try something else. And you do that the next month. And you can just compare your data along that whole process or changing out images in the way you're having the call to action on a button. The thing to know is don't change everything and try to implement everything all at once. But just pick something where you think it's going to have an impact where it matters. Understanding the goal. What's the point? Where do you want people to go? I have actually the second episode of my podcast is called the top five wording mistakes businesses make and it is still three years later, the second most downloaded episode on the show. And it just is going into these like and understanding what's happening in the brain. Why it's a problem. And one of the big things is there's too much too much too much. Is one of the things you have too many things you're trying to get somebody to go do. It's really vague. That's another piece too. If you have a question of Is this too many words? I can tell you right now the answer is yes. It's too many. Yeah, no matter how many words it is, it's too many. So you want to cut that back. So that but that framing piece is something that's really easy to go and test with and see how a slight reframe in your message can make a huge difference. That's so
important. And I love the analogy, but it is it's the exact same effing thing like, but it's all in how you say it. And I mean even in just thinking of communication and how to communicate to a teenager or communicate to a sibling or a team member that you You think, oh, I just don't get along with them. But their brain is wired a little differently. And what I've learned is that I have to say it the way they need to hear it so that they can actually they're listening. But are they comprehending and understanding? If I'm trying to like give direction on something. And so reframing how I say things, and then being a better listener, has really helped me become like a better leader, and just a better person to understanding how I need to be a better communicator. And there's been so many things where I'm like, stack this, lay this out like this, and then put this in alphabetical order, and then I'll walk away and come back. And then the way that the they did it, I'm like, oh, no, that's not what I was thinking, well, that's my fault, because I didn't clearly articulate or explain the details. And so over time, you're really taking a step back and saying, Okay, how can I reframe? Or even asking the person? How could I better explain this? So you would have done it this way? Kind of thing? is just, it's all like, very, very fascinating to me. Do you? What are your thoughts on like, the whole A B split tests thing? Do you are you a huge advocate of doing that?
Yeah, um, so there are many forms of research. And, you know, like, through the human behavior lab, we do stuff with eye tracking, and facial recognition, and EEG scanning and skin response all, you know, 600 data points per second, you can get like, really into a lot of different things. But for the average, you know, especially if you're like an entrepreneur, small business, you're not going to do something like that. And likely you don't need it's not a good use of your money to be investing in something at that level. But a B testing is used by some huge organizations like Netflix and Google, that they do a lot of their tests on. And Netflix, you know, is able to find through a B tests that the image that they use, when they're promoting a show can be influenced by up to 30%, more likelihood that someone's going to click and watch a show and keep watching, based on the images that are provided where they all look pretty similar, but there's a little bit of a difference there. And that's just by how do these two work, run it for a bit, pick the winner, and it runs against the new one pick the winner runs against the new one, to see how you can optimize. So Uber, Netflix, Google, they all use a B tests, among other things, but it is a really good resource to be able to try but again, don't just go and a B test 86 things on every single email. And don't test without intention. Because if you don't know what you're trying to find, or what the goal is, then it's a waste of time. You know, a lot like you're saying and a B testing on stuff, it feels like oh, we just run a couple and then Tada, but putting all the information in of who clicked on what and why and what you tested and for how long and documenting and evaluating that it's a full time job, maybe for multiple people, depending on how many you're running. So don't just do it to feel like you're doing something, have a reason. And you know, then go run the test to see. So, you know, if your goal is about, you're trying to be more efficient, you would want to test around something different than if you're trying to get engagement or list growth or conversions of people buying something. The way that you would communicate is different, what you would test is different based on those outcomes. And so it's important to have a plan and not just test for the sake of testing.
And something you and you've said it a couple times that anybody listening or watching I really want you to walk away understanding this, you and you're so right, like don't go if something's not working for 30 days, don't go change it a bunch of shit. Like what I've learned from my team members, who were very analytical, thank God is that we'll make one change. And we run it for at least 14 days to see what is happening. And a lot of times it's 30 days and even when when we work with companies now helping them organize all their their content. We require 90 days at least because we we can't get any data we can't track stuff and see what's working to even go back and make recommendations. And people will come to us and say, I just I hate my website. It's not, it's not responsive, it's not making me any money. And I'm like, do you really know what that means? Like? Are you just regurgitating what someone else told you? And, you know, ask them we'll, before we will, and they'll say, Well, what do you think we need? And it's like, well, let's look at your analytics first and see what actually is happening. And It shocks me how many people don't have Google Analytics, or, or any Analytics set up. And a lot of company marketing companies that build these sites. I mean, I have friends that own these companies. And I'm like, why? That's like me telling you, I'm going to make your event beautiful. And I show up with nothing, like no flowers, no drape, no crystals, like nothing. And like I don't understand, and I, I've got a better understanding now of it, where some people say, Oh, it's a separate service. Like I realize that it is a bigger Tom could admit to go in on the back end, set up all the search engine optimization stuff, and, but it's like, how can you sell a product and make it look pretty, but then on the back end, the client doesn't want that, or they don't want to pay for the additional service for the analytics to be set up. And then they're wondering why it doesn't work. Like I'm just confused. Do you have any insight to that? Like, why does some people just care about the front? And they don't care about the back of it? And the analytics and the data that's telling them what's working, what's not working? Like? Where does that come from?
A funny thing that and I'm trying to think of who I believe it was a friend of mine, and I don't think this was like something I saw on a show or something. I think I actually knew someone who said this. But I'm not 100%. Sure. So if someone's listening is like, No, that was from the show, like you're trying to steal it. Like I just honestly don't remember. But someone who had said that they didn't care about what their hair looked like from the back, I don't need a mirror, you know, you go get your hair cut, or something like I don't need to see it from like, I don't need the mirror to check if I like it, because I'm never gonna see my hair from the back. So I don't care. Which is ridiculous. Like lots of people see your ad from the back and need to know that it doesn't look wonky in the colors on this stuff or whatever. But that perspective of like, well, I'm not going to see it. So it doesn't matter, was something that just came to mind when you were talking. But so we have that, like, if it's not right in front of my face, then it isn't important. This is also like you're talking about even the springs back around to the way that you connect with team members. And if you feel like oh, well, they're, they're always grumpy. They're so they're so difficult. They hate everything, blah, blah, blah, our brains get what they expect, we have confirmation bias. And so if you believe that this team members difficult, and this one's your best friend, and they'll do whatever you give people benefit of the doubt that you wouldn't in another situation and going to that like 11,000,040 comparison point being if your brain that means for every one piece of information that your brain like let this got through a subconscious filter, there were 275,000 Other things that weren't important enough to focus on or have come into your set of information. And so if you're looking for that you say they're difficult, your brains gonna find and only give you all the stuff to prove how difficult they are. Whereas someone else is easy. And so to say then on that, like client selling point like, well, they don't care. Clients don't want that. They don't care about that. You're going to be picking up on pieces of information to help prove yourself, right, because that's how our brains are programmed. We like to think we're better, stronger, faster than everybody else, including us from five minutes ago. So that is part of the way you're filtering that information. So if you go into every conversation with that expectation, and then you can say, see, like they didn't even want to buy it. But it's the way you presented it. It's what you were picking up on. It's how you talked about it, you primed and created that situation more often than not. So if you change, you know, reframe your brain using our terms again and say, Well, what if they what if that wasn't true? What if they did wanted? How might you talk about it in that way? And what are the signs to show that they do like that? How could you communicate the value of that to help them to see that that's a great fit for them. If you approach them in that way, you could have a very different experience. And like you were saying setting parameter to say, we just don't do business with people that won't commit to 90 days. And we won't do it. And there's no debate like, and you're comfortable walking away, which I can tell you are and that's good. You need to know your your business's boundaries of where you can be successful, and who's the right client for you, that's super important. If you don't have those and go like, wow, like, we know, analytics are important, but if they don't want it, we won't make them do it. Maybe that's not the best approach. Instead, you know, if, if you are built upon analytics and, and analyzing data and helping it to be a successful website, and that's part of your credo, and what you sell on, then hold that line and say, totally get, like, If so and so down the streets willing to do it for less than you want to go do that. And you don't care about analytics, okay. But we don't. And this is why it's important. And it doesn't mean like, you know, no harm on you, like, no hard feelings if you decide to go do something else. But that's just not our model. And and really understanding what you're about. And communicating it with confidence definitely helps in all those selling conversations.
Yeah, I completely agree. Even when people don't want to hear it. They're like, just tell me the price. And I'm like, No, we're gonna walk through everything. And they're like, Well, I don't want that. I don't need that. Why do you think that? And then they're, they don't have anything to say? I'm like, because you don't know. And that's okay. You don't live in this world every day. But exactly what you just said, like, let me tell you why. It's so usually, then people, their minds change real quick. And I'm like, your results are gonna be really different. So like, we want to help you get there. And the fast way and the quick way. And if somebody told you, you can do all this in 30 days, and do it, right, they're lying to you. They're flat out lying to you. But there are there are companies that do that, but no, we're not going to do it. It's and I think the reason I'm so like, adamant is because it's been done to me, like, you know, in my younger days, being a business owner, and someone telling me, oh, yeah, we can do all this for this much money and did it and then it happens. And then there's no results. And it's like, Well, did you lie or was that an idiot? Because I didn't know the right questions to ask you. And so a lot of it just comes from learning and experiencing and I don't see this like wasting money or like making mistakes. It was like an opportunity for me to learn. And you know, be better. So this was this is so fascinating. Where can people go get your book because I am going to go get the book too?
Awesome. Well, it's on, you know, all the sites, you know, Amazon, Barnes and Noble. What have you. It's on Target's website, which is fun, too. So it's all around you can find it there. You can also if you just go to my website, the brainy business comm have links to the brainy business podcast to my book, I have a community of people that just a free space for people that are interested in behavioral science, behavioral economics to connect and have conversations. You can find me on all the socials as the brainy biz bi Z. And yeah, the book is what your customer wants, and can't tell you.
I love it. And for people listening or watching, you have been searching her us. And you guys will put the link in the show notes, you can download the first chapter for free if you go to the brainy business.com/unveiled. So we'll put that in the show notes. And thank you so much for offering that I know that people will love it. And it are you going to do an audible version.
There is there is an audible version. So and even though I have a podcast, and I swear I did all of what I could do, I am not the narrator of the book, but there is my with the publisher, that was just whatever. So there is an e book. So it's available on Kindle. It is available on audiobook and it has paperback version as well. And because I just can't help myself. So it's got lots of places to apply it within the book. And I made an additional 111 Page free companion workbook of extra PDFs and worksheets to really just help it be a tangible, usable book. Again, you can get that on my website and I'm happy to give you the link to
that's awesome. We'll put it all in the show notes. And I know that they can find you on social. Do you have a favorite platform though, that you spend more time on than others?
Yeah, I would say LinkedIn is the best sort of connecting space. But I'm also you know, I'm on Twitter quite a bit and Instagram, but yeah, LinkedIn. Good spot.
Awesome, awesome. Well guys, go check out what your customer wants and can't tell you. And also, it's unlocking consumer decisions with the science of behavioral economics, which is fascinating. So I think this is the most important business book to come out in years. That's, that's on your website. And I will agree, because if people can really study the behavior, and what is making consumers happy to buy from them, I think could be a complete game changer for for revenue and just for future company growth. So thank you so much for your time. This was amazing. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Awesome. And everybody listening. Be sure to tune in next week for another episode of business unveiled by y'all. That's it for this week's episode of business unveiled. Now that you have all the tools that you need to conquer the world and GSD get shit done. Would you share this with your friends and fellow business leaders? One thing that would really really help us and help new listeners is for you to rate the show, and leave a comment and Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you tune in and listen to business unveiled. You can check out the show notes at Angela proffitt.com/podcast and link up with us on social media so you can share your biggest insights. And I want to know your aha moments. Until next week, remember the profitable shifts and structures you're creating in your business, help you be more present in your life. So get out there and GSD