And we're gonna get into some really, really high level stuff that a lot of you have actually been asking about. We have a lot of clients asking about it, too. And asked him and he's like, Yes, last year was the best year with NF T's. And I'm like, Okay, I know that's not on our list to talk about. But let's talk about that. So totally going right here. But before we even talk about that, I would like for you to share because we've been chatting, but for anyone listening or watching a little bit about your journey, a little bit about your background, and how have you gotten to where you are today.
My name is Jason, I am a photographer slash artists, I sometimes I don't know, what is the proper designation. But I started with photography, like, people ask, like, when did I start photography? So if you're asking when I picked up a camera 2006, right. But I started photography as a business in 2012. And that was pretty much full time by 2014. And I think this is one of your questions, but I'll just go straight into it's like, well, how did I start? How did I make the transition because I'm like military. So like, between 2006 and 2011, I was in the Air Force building bombs and missiles. And then I got out and it's not a very civilian oriented job description, right? There's about three places in the country that I can do that and half a dozen overseas. So I, I kind of, I went to school, and I got my bachelor's in business and my master's in organizational leadership. So I have a little bit of psychology in that degree too. But I couldn't get hired. So people ask, like, how did I get into photography, so because I didn't have another choice. You know, this was the only thing that was making me money when I was in college, and my bachelor's. And then I went to get my masters because I couldn't get a job with a bachelor's and then they still couldn't get a job with a masters. And in the meantime, in the middle photography, as a business was like my third attempt at business. My first attempt was this thing with my dad, my second attempt was being a professional day trader. And then the, the third attempt, which was this and by that time, I was kind of scoping, like, what was actually needed to be a photographer. And and how can I do it better than everyone else like this? That was my thing, like I became, whatever level I am at photography, you can decide when you see my work if I'm shit or not. But I I would go to the beach in Hawaii, and I would, because I moved to Hawaii to get out of the military, which pretty much saved my life. But I went there and I go to the beach, and it'd be photographers lined up. People with cameras I called so lined up all the and taking the same damn picture. So I'd be there and just how can I make something different? And that's sort of how I fell into this cycle of trying to analyze what I'm doing, trying to get better. So that's, I guess that's the short story today. So I do photography, I sell large format pieces, I do art shows, like Art Basel and art Expo in New York. And then I do NFT is now as well. So that's and I teach a course called The Art seminar, which is a it's not just for photographers, but it there are a lot of photographers in there, but it's a business course on art.
That's awesome.
I didn't want you in our free talk, but I have a tendency to talk a lot. So yeah, let's let's guess Okay,
is that good? So, pivot, like just, I was married to someone who was a military for a hot moment. I did not come from a military family. So I didn't really know what I was signing up for. It's a FaceTime and texting, like none of that Zoom. None of that stuff existed back then. And so it was really hard to like, just communicate So there was a lot of like misunderstandings, and I mean, it just didn't work out. But I know that it was really challenging. Like when he came home and like trying to get integrated back into like, like exactly what you said, like, it was hard, it was stressful. And you're like, operating at such a high level, you know, finding for our country. And then, and you know, exactly the mission that you're on, at least the people that I've been around in the military, which God love, and we need them so much. But, you know, it's not for everybody. And then when if you get out or you're discharged or whatever, it's just like, what do you do? And so that's where, you know, military versus creative. It's just so different. And so I'm interested to know, like, from your mindset perspective, how did you pivot and really find yourself that like, okay, the military, I'm good with that, like, let's move on to creative because it's so different. They tell you exactly what to do everything, usually. Or there's a very clear roadmap on safety and how to protect whatever you're protecting. How, how did you make that shift?
Well, for starters, the photography thing started while I was in the military, I was stationed in North Pole, and I started taking pictures, right, because I couldn't afford to go home so far away. And flights are so expensive. So there was that. But there's, there's a little bit of competitive nature in me. So when I was in the military, I was a subject matter expert on what we did. And that was my designation, subject matter experts I was seventh level doing and teaching stuff I was doing, which set me aside, I was always a loner, but then I got into the military, and then they put me in these jobs where I was more of a loner. So in the military, one of the things you touched on is we have this tribe, family mentality. And when you get out, you missed that. Like any person I talked to you a few months after getting out, they've they've lost how to be, they've lost the family. And totally, I had a headstone on that, because they kept ostracizing me while I was in the military, so they would put me in positions where I was the only one. And in a confrontational spot doing at odds with so I was in QA. So I was doing a lot of like, I have to show up and make sure everything was good. But the people in my job description usually showed up and looked for things that were wrong. way, there's two different ways of approaching the same thing. So anyway, I was already alone, right? So I was already used to being alone. And when I got out of the military, I went to Hawaii and I was had all that, that stress and things I was dealing with and being able to focus on something. And look at it as a challenge helped me, I guess, redirect my energy. So that helped a lot. I don't know, when the transition happened, it didn't really seem hard for me. There was a while where it just took a while to believe that I could do it. Like as we grew up, where media was not a real job, like creating visual content was not a real job. Artists were rare in the success stage because people weren't nowadays, consuming everything, everything is a visual consume. But so our families grew up telling us that we couldn't be honest. So my first few years, as being an artist was me trying to convince and prove to my family that this was a real thing that I can make money at. So the transition from that was one believing it myself and to proving it. And, and luckily I was able to do both. And when I was in the military, I used I started out taking pictures with this point and shoot a Canon SD 750 or 600 or whatever, your fricking thing was so expensive back then you can get them for like 100 bucks now. And I would take these photos and everyone would be like, Oh, this is amazing up sell this. So I started out I guess, with a little bit of an idea that this was possible. Okay, no one who ever said that I could sell a photo back then owns a photo of mine now. So really? I don't have I don't have any collectors who are friends first. Like my collectors are friends now. But I don't have any like people I grew up with who who own a piece of my work. They wouldn't buy it when it was $200 and they won't buy it now when it's 10,000 so so that was an interesting transition I had to make you can't sell to your friends. I think there was a wandering answer, but I I get asked that a lot and I don't know where the mind shift came from. I also don't approach photography as art. You know, like the business side like it's There's creative and then there's business. And I've always had an entrepreneurial mindset. So doing photography is a business or being selling something as a business, it's just a business. And that's how I approach it. The part that gives me food, right? The other part is the art side. And that gets, that's like, 4% of what I do.
Yeah, I mean, you, you hear, you know, follow your passion, the money will come and like, it just doesn't fall in your lap, like people don't just show up, like, you have to make an effort to have a strategy. And otherwise, it's never gonna work. So I want to go back real quick, though, because you said something that is important that I want anybody listening or watching to really pay attention to because you said you felt like you wanted to prove to your family that like, what you were doing, like you can make a living at it. And I mean, I found that challenge, too. Because when I talk to my parents, I'm like, Yeah, quit healthcare. And I'm gonna go on tour and playing these weddings. And my dad's like, Have you fallen out of your bed and hit your head, like, you had a good job, you have insurance, you have a 401 K, blah, blah, I'm like, Well, I can always go back if this shit doesn't work out, like, but when you follow the passion, but then but what I learned, like my biggest challenge was my family and friends, because they had never done what I was trying to do. So why why the hell am I going to them? Never seen it work? Never. Yeah, it's just so how did you get over that? Because I know for me, it was it took years. And I'd have a business coach who looked at me and say, quit having a conversation with your family. And you don't owe them anything. And I'm like, they're just concerned, you know, and he's like, they've never done what you what you're trying to do. So quit asking. And he's like, when they bring it up, just don't don't discuss it. And you know, it did help a little bit. But it sucks sometimes, right? Because if you're at the top of your game, and something, and you know, we're in these magazines, and we're working on these great clients, and it looks so glamorous, it really isn't. It's lonely at the top, especially when you don't have anyone to celebrate it with like, within your family who's happy for you? You know, so then that's a whole nother side of it. But what was it for you where you're like, Okay, what I'm doing is enough for me, and I don't need to prove myself to my family anymore.
I looked like I said, I was a loner. So loner from when I was a kid. And the need for their approval was already pretty minimal. So I was a very self sufficient my ex military, or I was in the military, and I didn't go home, like I hadn't been home for like 10 years, oh, already really separated from God in their influence. And then the loner part like that. So when you talk about your family not approving of you, right, what you're kind of getting into is the imposter syndrome, right? Where their approval is what you need. So you don't feel like you are living up to a standard or a cultural thing that you grew up with, right? And if you're enough of a jerk, you can just say, I don't care. Yeah. And that's kind of that's kind of where I got to really early, like the whole imposter syndrome thing ended up the solution to it was nobody cares. Like, sure my family cared what the result of my efforts were, but didn't care just like nobody else cared about my thoughts about my efforts. Because they only see it from the outside. So like, if you if I feel like I don't believe I can do this, or I don't believe I'm good enough for this, then it's like, Wait, nobody cares what I think. Nobody cares how I feel they all they see is the out the end product. So that's the only thing that you need to concern yourself about. So I had a bit of a buffer because when I was in, I was in Afghanistan in 2008 when the market crashed. So I was making all this extra money, you don't pay for anything. And then you get paid a little bit of combat stuff, right. And I was investing. And I started out my really entrepreneur in trading. Well, I started as an investor until I got out of the military, then I started trading. And I had to go through this phase of convincing or trying to convince my parents that I don't have to sweat and get dirty to make a living. Right. Those things don't. What is the effort is not scalable. Right, right. Yes. So and now some types of learning and by the time I accepted it, I was already failing at trading but it was a buffer between being an artist and being in and doing a get out of the military. It was just this Coming to terms with the fact that I cannot put in more hours to make more money, there's a limit. So I had never convinced them that that was a solution. That might be one of the reasons I failed because I couldn't, I couldn't get out of my own head that what I was doing was a real way to make money. So I was probably underpinning failure on myself, right? What does that call self sabotage? Because I couldn't get it into my head that I didn't need to sweat to make money. I didn't need to put things together and come up with a product at the end, I could trade and make an income. So by the time I was done doing that the photography was just an extension.
Yeah. Well, to your point, like my whole point of just like reiterating is stop worrying about what everyone else thinks about you. And as soon as you quit caring, and then people who are judging, if they've never done it, they have no right. But for some reason, some people really like to judge and tell you what to do and how to do it, but they've never done it. So I'm just like, oh my gosh, it just, it drives me crazy sometimes. So let's get into like the fun stuff. So pandemic happens, you know, we're coming out of it, depending on when you listen or watch this podcast. But how did your business completely shift and change?
So I think economically, the pandemic happened in different stages, the beginning of the pandemic, so people out of work, but my target market, not out of income. So I was entering a market who was who couldn't go out and couldn't spend their money in person, but were looking at something to stand for. So every client who I thought, who was spending money and other stuff, and putting art to the side, now had time and to put to devote to looking at this product that I create. So I went after that in a marketing terms. And what changed was, I used to do local art fairs and big expos. So I live in Bellevue, Washington and the demographic of the people who are affluent, they have enough money to spend on art, which mean, if you're looking and trying to figure out demographics, people need 5% of their income to spend on whatever they want, right. And that 5% has to be enough to buy a piece for me. So that's my demographic is right there. So I could go to a local fair, and do 20 30k, or extend that to 40 50k, in six or seven months by follow ups and whatnot, that would support my business. So do a few of those a year, and then go to like art Expo in New York and do something like that with a bigger audience and expansion. So my business was based on in person interaction and follow up. But then I couldn't do that anymore. But those people are still out there. So it was just Who am I trying to sell to? And where are they? And one of my one of my friends, reframed this idea for me, just like last week is like, where people go into solve their problems show up there. Right. Yeah, makes sense. With social media marketing, like Facebook is the biggest aggregator of information. And you can you can put in an income, a demographic, a zip code of behavior, and then show up in front of those people. And then you have to show up and show up and show up. One of the things I had to realize, as I like, you and I created a report, in 567 minutes, when we were talking, right, you can see, you can hear my tone and whatnot, online, it doesn't really happen. It takes 3040 interactions with your content in order to get to know you. So my business strategy went from Product Marketing, which is me showing up at shows and here looking at my shit, right? To brand marketing, this is me, this is who I am. And you can also look at my shirt. And most people get to know you, then they can buy it. So it turned in from 20 minute interaction and then purchase 234 months marketing, repeating showing up so that people can buy yourself.
And what you said repetitively is showing up consistently and when you're consistent. Again, over and over and over. When people are ready, you're there. And if you're not there, when they're ready, they're gonna buy from someone else.
Yes. And that's also really important to so you can divide your buyers up to a spectrum, right like a pyramid, where at the top, they're ready to buy the problem aware and solving their problem. And then at the middle section, they are not problem aware, right. So you have to show up to those people, like 3% of the people are ready to buy. And if you show up to them, they don't know who you are, you're just a piece of pretty pixels. And you know, people buy who people buy the artist, or people work with the consultant that they like. Or they go to the store whose brand they approve of. So if they drive by a store that has the stuff they want, but they've never heard about it, they're not going to go in the store, they're going to drive another mile and go to Michael's to buy the right suppliers. So like, all of the artists that I talked to, they always just did they do in by now ads, they're showing up to the 3%, who have no connection to them, when they need to be showing up to the people who don't know, they need a piece of art who don't see their empty walls. They live in this space, they don't see their empty walls until they do and then you're a part of their growth into understanding that that's something they can buy.
Which is so neat. How did you get into the whole NFT thing? That was it after the pandemic? Like, what did you study? Like? How did you learn how to do that?
I learned by trial and error. But what happened was, is I started seeing about it on the news, right? And I teach I teach otter selling art, which isn't a business course for artists. So I'm like, Okay, well, here's a market that's happening. They're gonna have questions about it. So I need to go live on it. Which is, which has been, you know, honestly, it's been like a cycle where I learned stuff and try stuff just because I know that people out there want to try it and want to learn it. And then if it's useful, I tell them how I did it. So I started from an article and just said, fuck it, I'll try it. Yeah. And, and went from there. And what I found was a brand new art market. That I, that allows me to do things I wanted to do that I couldn't do as a physical market. So I so I've made a living on landscapes. So landscape photography. So if you go to my website, there's the ice, the ice cave, and the two year old fire and my TED Talk. Landscape, right. And this is, I guess, part of the growth story for me, right I when I started photography, what I wanted to do was really cool portraits and fantasy art. And what I found was a money hole that I can just pour money into in time and effort and not get anything out of it. And then some of my early work got picked up in like your shot National Geographic stuff. And I created this whole audience of people that I felt like I had an audience at serve, and I just kept going with the landscape. So to 2008 or 2018, I started creating the portraits that I want to do. Like if you go to the ARIA collection on my site, like those are like story driven, fine art portraiture, highly based in psychology and interest action. And that's where I wanted to go with the art still really difficult, like the niche audience for that is like 30 to 55 year old women who are single entrepreneurs and bosses like those are the only people who buy those. There then if you're not watching, looking at my website, those are their nude photographs. They're not really new, and there's not they're unrevealing new, it's artistically done right in a
very beautiful the way that you like the way that you see it. Looking at it,
thanks. So support the market for them as women, right, the market of middle aged woman. So super niche, but then NF T's COMM And what I found was, at the time, I was like, I was really early on in February 2021. landscape photography wasn't selling, it was all really creative stuff, like really avant garde and very, like, they could be hand stuff like different kinds of art. I don't know what I'm trying to say right now. Yeah, and that's the stuff I wanted to do. Like if you go to the NFT tab on my website, and then go to the Guardians, season two, then you'll see like, that's the stuff I had wanted to do for a long time. The concept for those guardians happened in 2012. And I just wasn't able to make it in 2012. And then by the time I started to get into business then I realized there was no market for it. So I didn't put any time into it. But now again, like now like now there's like there's a collection of 10 There's only four released on that page. But we can go and we can talk about business models and NF T's but what what I found is an audience that didn't know what I was I was buying are
interesting. And like
in spaces and talking to people their first time ever buying art was an NFT and they had and these are people spending hundreds without 1000s of dollars on art who have bare walls in their home, because they never looked at art and said, I want that, well, that means something to me, or that tingles me in a place that wasn't tingled before, right. So I still put up the landscapes, they don't move as fast. But I'm creating this fantasy stuff, the story driven fantasy work. And that has an audience that I never had before. So. So that's what I found, I found, I found an audience that didn't have and there's some people who might get offended of it. They didn't have the intellectual sophistication to look at art, the way I would approach and sell art to an art buyer. So there because it's an intersection of art and finance, and when people are looking at when they when they got there was, how can I make money off of this JPEG? Instead of how do I collect this thing, because I love it. So my personal battle with NF TS is to create art collectors at Affinity biters. And it's not been the most successful thing, but it's working, it's going. And it's, it's an interesting thing, like, I'm often like chagrined at this idea that I should make a 10,000 profile picture project, because people will buy it versus the Guardians, which are selling slow, right? Because people are more apt to spend 4050 bucks $100 on a PFP profile picture, then they are to invest in a piece of art, because they want to flip it, they want to buy it and then sell it again. But out of that audience is coming is people who are appreciating are starting to want to buy and own fine art. Doing a longer approach to the to this game, but a longer term approach to community building for people who want to buy my work. And I am mostly doing it on the Cardano network.
That's awesome. I just I don't think if anybody gets offended, you know that you say how it is like, intellectually, like, I'm learning, like, the older I get, the more I'm learning about it. And especially like if we have clients, like we did their wedding or something, and, you know, they're into art, are there artists, or photographers, and yeah, I learn new stuff all the time about how to appreciate it, I never really got into it or really understood it. And you know, the older I get, the more life experience I get. And the more I travel all over the world and like, it's almost like you have to be in the right mindset to be able to take in the information to really appreciate it. And unless, like you grew up with parents that really appreciated art, I just, I don't know that I know many people who are just so into it on their own until they discover the love for it when they're doing something. But do you do you see that that people who don't understand it or appreciate it? Like they're just not there yet? It's because they're not educated? at all on it?
Yes, it's kind of like poetry, like trying to get people to understand or even like, or to make it through a whole poem. Yeah, there's a certain amount of empathy that has to be that you have to have the ability to apply to an inanimate object. So you have the give life to you give life to the piece of art, like an artist and create something meaningful, but only if you can understand the context of it. So in order to be able to give yourself time to give the confidence to come to understand the context, there has to be something in you like, like a door that has to be opened that allows you to look at a piece of art, and say and put your own feelings on it. Whether they say a piece of a picture tells 1000 words, right, but they're not yet words. Like if I take a picture and put it on the wall, and someone gives 1000 words, they're not telling they're not quoting me, it's their own thing reflected at them. And being able to receive that reflection or see it for what it is, is a life skill, I suppose. And I think it's based on empathy, which I've never thought about this before. But this is my assumption right now is I think it's the and that's so so before NF T's I never really encountered many people who didn't have that already, because that's the crowd I ran in, right. Those are the people I networked with and the people I showed up in front of but now I do and it's not it's a lack of exposure and a lack of other people shaping your thoughts. Right. So, and that's happening for a lot of people now in NF T's they're starting to, they're getting exposed to art to this one bullshit thing called an P fi PFS, right. Yeah. That's, that's how I feel about it. And, and then it's an entry way, our entry drug into other things. And not everybody is adopting art because they got into NF T's. It's not a universal transition, because a lot of them are just like, I want to flip NF T's or I want access to this yacht club party. Right. Other than that, it doesn't mean anything to them. But some people are some people are seeing and hearing stories, relating stories to something visual, and then finding reflection and the meaning in it. So that's, that's what I see happening.
I think I just, I love it. It's so cool. I'm more into art now. Because I'm a techie. And I'm like, digital art. Okay, I need to learn more about this. Like, what exactly does this mean? But that's because I'm interested in technology, like personally, so it's gotten me more into learning about it. Let's see what an
entity is.
Yo. Yeah. Yeah.
We're talking. Yeah, so NFC, non fungible token, right? Non fungible, meaning that everyone has its own unique item. But what is an entity that you have to understand what blockchain is, which is a ledger of all transactions on a public on a public ledger? Okay, I'm going to do this in like two minutes, because I know we have a limited time. The whole idea revolves around ownership. So you can own baseball cards, right, or hot wheel cars. And I can look at your hot wheel car collection, and not think twice about it, because it's just colored pieces of metal, right? Or baseball cards and a piece of plastic. But you like them because you own them, they're important to you. Right. And here I am, one of the big pushes in the NFT world is female inclusion. And here I am talking about everything from man's perspective. So maybe my girlfriend collects in like really values, the makeup, she gets, like the tools and the brushes and like, some are better than others. And she doesn't want to use them because they're special, right? Same thing, like, I don't care about that. But it's something that she owns, she can say it's hers. And that's all that's all digital ownership is, is our innate desire to own something, and its value to us. But what NF T's allows us to do is to get that value from other people. So you can go right click and save one of my photos, but you can't sell it, you don't own it. If you buy my NFT you can sell it and make money on it. It's a tangible asset that it has a recursive income or recoverable income. You know, like those angels, you were looking at the floor on those or the lower price on them. On season one is like 10 sales away from being 1000. Ada, when was the $100. And the people who own that good on Season One, got it as a gift. So there's like 900 of them that went out. They got it as an airdrop boy boy perk of owning a different entity. So they got it from nothing, basically, as a part of their investment in another NFT project. They can turn around and sell it for damn near $1,000 At the moment, right? Wow. So they own it. But if you wait, click Save that you can't, you can't sell it. You don't own it. So NFT is in relation to art is is that but NF t's on blockchain represents so much more, right NF T's will become our digital identity. They will they will become proof of ownership of anything tangible or digital. So when we talk about selling art, we're talking about a financial asset coated onto the blockchain that is referenceable and transferable. So I hope that breaks it down enough.
Yeah, I've taken a couple I'm in a entrepreneur organization and we have a group of people that are learning about like NF T's and what I mean we've been doing it the whole time, the pandemic and the visuals that the guy who teaches it that uses you know, like the little chain and ledger and but it's like visually I had to see it before I could like really understand it. And but you did a great job like explaining it But how i like how to explain it to my mother is like buying a concert ticket. And then when you go in to a conference, you know, they would click the little thing or whatever that is scan it in. And but exactly what you're saying. I mean, that's what Gary Vee did to get into his conference is you had to find NFT, which you had to get into cryptocurrency, which had to get a wallet, which you had to learn about blockchain. But I wanted to go, but I could turn around and flip it make the money back. So I know that that's probably some people's intention in terms of like investing in it. It's just, it's so neat. Like, I'm so glad that we lived during this time, so that people who are creating art, like you can. People can't steal your shit, basically, which is really good. Because I know it's been like a major problem. You know, online, have a jpeg or a png or, you know, whatever it is, but it's all like very fascinating that it protects the intellectual property. It does support it. It's important.
So I have a blockchain and NFT 10122, a one that I can give you the link to, and you can share it with everyone's on YouTube. And it did it. I did it the way you describe like, instead of doing a presentation with slides, I connected my iPad, and I drew it out like it was a chalkboard. So like, I'm sitting in my sister's office, I'm visiting her right now, right? When we were talking about learning about blockchain, it was I said, first thing I asked was, Do you have a whiteboard? Because that's how I was gonna break it down like school, because you gotta teach how your audience wants to learn. But I think that's the best way to learn it. Like this is a blockchain, add your chain. This is this is decentralization, and this is centralization. And this is the difference between the two, and then break it down until you get to entities. That might be something people are interested in.
Yeah, that could be a whole different pot. This is awesome, though. Like I just I, I mean, I could talk about it all day. I'm just again, like fascinated about like, where it's going. And there's some, some people I know, they're, they're just they're not risk takers. And they're like, You're crazy. And I was like, that's fine. You you like you can think that you know, but when you're a risk taker, sometimes things work. And sometimes they don't. But if you don't take the risk, you'll never know if it works.
You don't win if you don't play. Right.
Exactly. Exactly. So if people want to connect with you, where should they go?
So my website is Jason mathias.com. If you're an artist looking for the art of selling art, there's a blue bar at the top, and I put a I broke down and put a link in the thing for tassa. Right. So also like our, our task, but all of my art is there. My TED talk is on the about page. So like that's like a 10 minute, get to know me really fast. I'm gonna get to see some of my work. And then I spend most of my time on Twitter. No. Real Jason Mathias on Twitter. should reach me DM join my Discord. That's basically where I live right now. That's awesome. Another Gary Vee thing that I've learned about? Yeah, community management. Like I think we started out this and we were going to talk about marketing and sales and whatnot, but it's how do you how do you manage your community and the people who are interested in you? You know, so social media that lives on an algorithm and algorithms doesn't cut it. Because you can't connect the most engaged. Twitter accounts have 8% engagement. So if you have 100,000 people you reach 1000 of them. Yes. Yeah. And that would be phenomenal. That would be absolutely phenomenal. But in general is three to 5%. Or if you me, like two to 3% if I'm lucky. But on Discord, you have a captive audience as long as they come to your discord which incentivizing them to be there but yeah, Discord is a major part of my life right
now. Yeah. Yeah. It's we'll have to talk about the again another pot. I'm like making all these notes like this could be another one and another one. Yeah, I'm we're constantly preaching like, social media is great for leads. But like if you don't own your audience, and if there's not some type of a customer journey or a cycle and you're sending people you lose people and people wonder, they're like, there's no ROI on on my social media, there's no like, because there's no clear path. So how, you know, it's just people are missing some of the links that connect all of these things. So that would be another good one on community. That would be great. Thank you so much for your time today. This is awesome. And we'll put all the links in the show notes for everybody to check it out. You guys have Have to go check out his website and check out the pictures like they're they're really beautiful. And if you're watching or listening, thank you so much for your time and be sure to tune in next week to another episode of business unveiled. That's it for this week's episode of business unveiled. Now that you have all the tools that you need to conquer the world and GSD get shit done. Would you share this with your friends and fellow business leaders? One thing that would really really help us and help new listeners is for you to rate the show, and leave a comment and Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you tune in and listen to business unveiled. You can check out the show notes at Angela proffitt.com/podcast and link up with us on social media so you can share your biggest insights and I want to know your aha moments. Until next week, remember, the profitable shifts and structures you're creating in your business help you be more present in your life. So get out there and GSD